Cardiovascular fitness tests

seanrmcse · Post by **seanrmcse** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:41 am

Earlier this year, I started a discussion about maximum heart rates and was provided with some excellent advice.

Since then I have been competing well in TT racces and training hard for my first Triathlon (30th Sept). All is going really well, but I still have concerns about about my max heart rate? I am 46 years old and seem to have a 'chipmunk' heart rate. It does not impede my training in anyway and I race well, however I would like some professional advice.

Please could someone recommend a qualified coach who can assess my cardio thresholds and confirm I am training effectively?

Many thanks

Velo coach · Post by **Velo coach** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:29 am

Max HR is specific to each rider. The general 220 minus age is used to establish a very general max hr. However 220 minus 8 beats for every 10 years I have found a bit more accurate so as a very general guide you should be 184 bpm. The more accurate way of calculating max is by either examining race data although if you are doing TTs then the data will show your threshold hour and not max. If you were doing road races then this might show some max hr efforts. The other way is to be tested and this would be a ramp test.

I use power meters for such tests and as the name implies your effort is ramped up every 1 min until you start to fade then a final hard effort. This will give a max hour to establish training zones using a heart rate monitor. I charge £40 for this test followed by written advice and training zones.

I have seen a number of riders who have had high heartrates which rise quickly on the bike and obviously can be an indication of a below average aerobic efficiency. Also remember the maximum will change so an annual test for this maximum would be advisable.

PhilBixby · Post by **PhilBixby** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:47 pm

As per response above we all vary wildly. Mine's around 175 (at age 53) but - for example - coach Tony Williams' is around 230bpm at roughly the same age.

Dr Dave · Post by **Dr Dave** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Mine is only around 165-167 at almost 48 yrs. I suspect this also reflects a pitiful VO2 Max

Melly · Post by **Melly** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:24 pm

Im 45 and a been cycling for about 3 years and done nothing for the previous 10 following a squash shoulder injury, training for racing around 6 months now, my max rate at dishforth last Sunday was 199 and averaged 174 for the whole race.

RichardD · Post by **RichardD** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:31 pm

Dave, According to the table of data at the bottom of the linked page you are closer to Hinault and Merckx than most.

http://bigmat78.tripod.com/files/bigmig.html

i.e. your max heart rate is your max heart rate and says nothing about your fitness.

Dr Dave · Post by **Dr Dave** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:45 pm

RichardD wrote:Dave, According to the table of data at the bottom of the linked page you are closer to Hinault and Merckx than most.

http://bigmat78.tripod.com/files/bigmig.html

i.e. your max heart rate is your max heart rate and says nothing about your fitness.

Absolutely - but only to the extent that you define fitness as being able to perform to your genetic potential. My point I suppose is that in simple terms - for a given stroke volume - the faster it goes the more it pumps. I think it's fair to say that V02 max is a pretty good indication of genetic potential and although I have never had mine tested I have a sneaky feeling that I am nearer the 50th centile than the 99th.

When it comes to racing to what extent can a fit donkey beat an unfit thoroughbred?

With respect to the figures quoted in the article you've linked to given that powermeters are a recent invention I suspect that the figures are derived from mathematical formulae using known body weights and calculating times taken to climb known hills rather than being actually measured and that the biological parameters may be questionable. Not to mention the enhancing affects of the pharmaceutical industry

Interesting debate certainly

MarkA · Post by **MarkA** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:19 pm

Please could someone recommend a qualified coach who can assess my cardio thresholds and confirm I am training effectively?

Adam Hardy, who operates as SportsLab , has been helping me this year.

http://sports-lab.co.uk

PhilBixby · Post by **PhilBixby** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:45 pm

"...for a given stroke volume - the faster it goes the more it pumps. I think it's fair to say that V02 max is a pretty good indication of genetic potential..."

I should know better than to get into a debate like this with a doctor, but... ...the heart's only one part of the system. My HR has plunged in the past 7-8 years - my max has dropped from about 192 to 175, and my resting HR has gone down a lot too. Basically my heart's pumping much more per beat; my threshold power's gone up but I've still hit a plateau because other elements in the system (presumably me lungs, the pathetic b******s) are at capacity and it's not a simple beats x volume calculation.

In terms of racing, many of us out there are just fairly well-trained donkeys, but we still manage to have a good time and occasionally come away with envelopes containing fivers. VO2max is certainly a good indication of your performance ceiling, but within that there's still lots of opportunity for success. If it was just about vO2max the good timetrialists would win everything, but they don't - because others can suffer more than them on hills, or sprint better, handle their bikes better or simply sit on their wheels until they wear themselves out. It's a cracking sport. A fit donkey can go a long way!

Cyan Skymoos · Post by **Cyan Skymoos** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:17 pm

That's the great thing about never using a hrm, it's one less thing to worry about. Of course I've no idea if my training is effective, but that's part of the fun..you find out when you pin a number on your back.

Dr Dave · Post by **Dr Dave** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:32 pm

PhilBixby wrote:"...for a given stroke volume - the faster it goes the more it pumps. I think it's fair to say that V02 max is a pretty good indication of genetic potential..."

I should know better than to get into a debate like this with a doctor, but... ...the heart's only one part of the system. My HR has plunged in the past 7-8 years - my max has dropped from about 192 to 175, and my resting HR has gone down a lot too. Basically my heart's pumping much more per beat; my threshold power's gone up but I've still hit a plateau because other elements in the system (presumably me lungs, the pathetic b******s) are at capacity and it's not a simple beats x volume calculation.

In terms of racing, many of us out there are just fairly well-trained donkeys, but we still manage to have a good time and occasionally come away with envelopes containing fivers. VO2max is certainly a good indication of your performance ceiling, but within that there's still lots of opportunity for success. If it was just about vO2max the good timetrialists would win everything, but they don't - because others can suffer more than them on hills, or sprint better, handle their bikes better or simply sit on their wheels until they wear themselves out. It's a cracking sport. A fit donkey can go a long way!

Certainly having a medical education helps

I'm no exercise physiologist but do have a reasonable insight into most factors at play here - cardiac output is certainly one of the principle measures that determines VO2 max. I'm less certain about lung 'capacity' (there are various parameters to this) as in most cases I believe (but may be wrong) that the lungs can shift enough air to oxygenate the blood that goes through them. I think that the ability to shift enough blood through the lungs to extract the maximum amount of oxygen from the inspired air is the limiting factor here and that the vascular resistance of the lungs is hence more relevant. All assuming a healthy specimen of course. pathology will impact on any and/or all of these things.

Then there's peripheral vascular issues, microvasculararity of muscle, mitochondrail numbers and efficiency, neuromuscular coordination blah blah blah..

Then there's recovery, nutrition, pedalling efficiency..

Still think that at the end of the day you can't polish a turd but fully agree with your last paragraph in terms of being able to race and enjoy it.

RichardD · Post by **RichardD** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:16 pm

Still think that at the end of the day you can't polish a turd but fully agree with your last paragraph in terms of being able to race and enjoy it.

At the risk of going off topic, and in the spirit of having a rigorous discussion...

http://www.howtocleanstuff.net/how-to-polish-a-turd/

Ah, t'internet is a wonderful thing

Melly · Post by **Melly** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:54 pm

Interesting article in this weeks CW on exactly this subject on Miguel Indurain comparing his current statistics following testing at 46 compared with results from when he was at his best, apparently he had a pair of lungs that were so big that he had an odd shaped oversize rib cage !!

Dr Dave · Post by **Dr Dave** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:12 pm

Melly wrote:Interesting article in this weeks CW on exactly this subject on Miguel Indurain comparing his current statistics following testing at 46 compared with results from when he was at his best, apparently he had a pair of lungs that were so big that he had an odd shaped oversize rib cage !!

Not to mention the needle marks from the EPO....

Of course if you have huge lungs you need to maximize your ability to transfer oxygen from them - hence you will respond well to enhancement.

Melly · Post by **Melly** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:35 pm

Oh your so cynical Dr D

We have some experience of EPO here, some years ago, my wife who suffers from kidney disease and is awaiting a transplant took EPO 2 on a weekly basis in a trial for the renal department, and we had a constant supply in the fridge which she injected weekly, if only id known at the time

. No sorry not for me!!!, ill just struggle on with the aged heart rate and the heavy legs