Thought I'd kick off a new thread...
I said I'd do some notes from last night's meeting at the pub. I didn't take any notes at the time so these are from memory and probably filtered by my own preferences, so I'd be grateful if the others who were there (Broomwagon, RichT, Dr.Dave, likemybike and DaveC) would add/correct/comment.
Okay:-
- Since the demise of the TLI North Yorks series which the Beldons organised, which shut down because of NY Highways requirements, we're missing a local weekday evening road race series. Cliff and Brenda have had enough and aren't looking to get it going again.
- None of us got rides in the EYRRL this year, and it's fair to assume that the series will stay pretty much full with riders from more local clubs, including those who share organisation of the series.
- Although BC is making very positive press comments about progress in changing legislation (The Cycle Racing on Highways Regulations 1960) to allow club marshals to stop traffic and hence allow safe racing, we probably shouldn't rely on this anytime soon.
- Although East Riding still seem happy to allow clubs to marshal their races, we'd need to assume "Chapter 8 Accredited" traffic control measures for anywhere else (and trying to run a second series on EYRRL's patch would probably cause problems).
- A league series could be run under TLI or BC. BC gives greater back-up, and running the races as Regional C+ allows E1234 handicapped events and still allows the race organiser flexibility (for example to set a novice group off before the main 4th cats) while giving BC points.
- There's a good model out there for online registration, payment and admin in the shape of the CDNW and Surrey leagues. Riders pre-register, volunteer to marshal specific events, and then enter races. Failure to show up to marshal incurs a fine and expulsion from the series. Heads on spikes! We should take a look at how this works and costs of replicating it.
- Costs of running events with traffic management will be higher, and it may well be necessary to set entry fees higher (maybe £15-20) to cover costs. There is no shortage of riders wanting to race, and if the costs are adequately explained then the feeling was that there would be plenty of entrants (CDNW books up very early).
- We have contact with a traffic management provider - Rich Houghton (ex NY Police, now retired and set up to provide Highways cover for sporting events) - we could contact him to get a price to cover the whole thing.
- We should identify possible circuits. Suggestions:- Out of North Yorks but not into EYRRL territory (around Pocklington / Stamford Bridge etc); West Yorks and "race-friendly" parts of North Yorks - Kippax, Thorner, Beckwithshaw, Bishopwood.... ....contact police to see what their attitude would be; or North Yorks and simply bite the bullet of traffic management costs.
- The series should be run on a shared basis between a number of clubs. Clifton, Malton(?), Cycleworks(?) and (say) two or three others who aren't already involved with the Tuesday night circuit series. Contact Leeds Mercury, Yorkshire Velo, etc etc.
- Suggestion to run events on Thursday evenings so no clash with the Tockwith events. They then would clash with our SPOCOs but there's less cross-over in terms of riders.
Have I missed anything? I've highlighted the "to-do" bits. Who fancies taking some of them on??
A new North Yorkshire race league
Moderator: Moderators
To get the ball rolling!
I will have al ook at the CDNW and Surrey legues and see how they work and also make contact with other local clubs to assess there level of interest.
Phil,
Showing my ignorance here.... but, what is the CDNW league and is the Surrey League just called the "Surrey League" or any other name?I will begin by googling them...
thanks
I will have al ook at the CDNW and Surrey legues and see how they work and also make contact with other local clubs to assess there level of interest.
Phil,
Showing my ignorance here.... but, what is the CDNW league and is the Surrey League just called the "Surrey League" or any other name?I will begin by googling them...
thanks
Identifying possible circuits: This looks like it could be quite a big job. I'm up for looking into it, compiling a list and speaking to the relevant police. But I would need some help from others with circuit ideas from where they live or where they go riding to assist. Has anyone got any suggestions?
Phil, have you got any guidelines on circuit formats?
Phil, have you got any guidelines on circuit formats?
Well, initial bedtime reading should be the Cycle Racing on Highways Regulations which you'll find at http://lvrc.org/documents/road_traffic_act_1960.pdf - you'll find reference to speed limits etc and also a minimum circuit length of 10 miles (the latter is often disregarded, but the speed limits stuff is probably relevant).
Beyond that, it's general stuff:- all left turns, avoid roads so narrow that the bunch will fill them, watch out for things that might be busy at evenings/weekends and lead to lots of traffic, etc. Preferably include a few hills and exclude as many towns/villages as possible.
The fella we discussed in respect of providing traffic management services if required was Rich Houghton. Rich is ex police and pretty much every race application in the last god-knows-how-many years will have passed across his desk. It may be worth making contact with him first for a dual-purpose chat:- (i) Rich, we may have some work for you next year and (ii) can you suggest which local circuits would be easiest to get approved by the relevant Highways Authorities? Might save a lot of poring over OS maps. If you agree, PM me with your email address and I'll email his contact details and recent emails regarding the service he's offering. Thanks for taking this on!
Beyond that, it's general stuff:- all left turns, avoid roads so narrow that the bunch will fill them, watch out for things that might be busy at evenings/weekends and lead to lots of traffic, etc. Preferably include a few hills and exclude as many towns/villages as possible.
The fella we discussed in respect of providing traffic management services if required was Rich Houghton. Rich is ex police and pretty much every race application in the last god-knows-how-many years will have passed across his desk. It may be worth making contact with him first for a dual-purpose chat:- (i) Rich, we may have some work for you next year and (ii) can you suggest which local circuits would be easiest to get approved by the relevant Highways Authorities? Might save a lot of poring over OS maps. If you agree, PM me with your email address and I'll email his contact details and recent emails regarding the service he's offering. Thanks for taking this on!
I had an interesting conversation with Richard Houghton of CommunityTM yesterday. He has made some suggestions for routes which I'm going to investigate further.
I've also got some more information on the service he provides and the costs involved.
Should we agree a date when we can meet up for everyone to discuss their findings etc. and agree on a way forward? Possibly some time in mid to late June?
I've also got some more information on the service he provides and the costs involved.
Should we agree a date when we can meet up for everyone to discuss their findings etc. and agree on a way forward? Possibly some time in mid to late June?
-
Simon Donoghue
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:01 am
Sounds a good idea Rich...Do you want to suggest a date? I have contacted CDNW and Sussex leagues and also emailed local clubs with a few positive responses from some of them so far. I will post something more detailed about this soon......RichT wrote:I had an interesting conversation with Richard Houghton of CommunityTM yesterday. He has made some suggestions for routes which I'm going to investigate further.
I've also got some more information on the service he provides and the costs involved.
Should we agree a date when we can meet up for everyone to discuss their findings etc. and agree on a way forward? Possibly some time in mid to late June?
I contacted 25 local (ish) clubs to see if they would be interested in supporting any plans to start a new league. Both ‘York Cycleworks’ and ‘Dirtwheels’ were very interested and expressed an interest in hosting an event. Very favourable reply also received from Malton Wheelers who were willing to support a series.
I have also had a look at the Surrey Cycle League and Cycling Development North West Road Race League (CDNW) websites to see how they operate. I won’t write down everything here since their respective websites seem very comprehensive but a few points to note:
• Both Leagues are run under the BC.
• Both leagues charge an “affiliation fee” to clubs participating (£60 for Surrey and £50 for CDNW). Surrey charge clubs £300 who wish to participate but don’t actually promote any races.
• Both Leagues place an emphasis on riders having to marshal a designated number of events if they wish to ride.
I contacted both leagues specifically to ask about costs and have copied their respective replies in full…see below:
Email reply from CDNW:
HI Cameron,
If you run the league under TLI then I should think the levies and other charges would be considerably less than being affiliated to British Cycling. For example, the race levy for each rider is £4.00 ( £3 BC levy,£1 regional levy) the insurance for each event is £40. I believe the scale of charges for TLI is much lower but I doubt if their insurance is as comprehensive as B C's. We also employ NEG moto cycle escorts for each of our races and this adds to the cost of promotion, but in terms of event safety, we find them invaluable. Our costs are covered by the charges we make to each rider. We charge £50 to each club who affiliates to Cycling Development NW,but this is optional. However, a rider who is a member of an affiliated club pays £10 to register with the league compared to a charge of £25 if the rider's club is not affiliated. This registration fee is a one off payment and is valid for one year. The race entry fees are £16 per rider.
Our standard running costs for each event are:first aid (Red Cross), commissaires travel fees 27p per mile, moto cycle escort payment, race levies, hire of race HQ usually village halls that vary in price from £40 - £120.
When we set out to form the league some ten years ago the most difficult problem we faced concerned the perennial problem of marshalling. In the early years this was quite difficult and very time consuming. We solved this constant issue by making it compulsory for all riders to marshal one event. No rider can register with the league unless he/she selects one event to marshal. Any rider who fails to marshal is not allowed to start in any race until they select another event to marshal. We also have a riders' code of conduct. This code was put together by the riders and is very worthwhile since it requires from each competitor a minimum level of behaviour in terms of courtesy,no swearing, no littering and respect for other road users.
From the above you have probably gathered that we run a high cost series of races and if we ran it under TLI rules it probably would be cheaper. Having seen TLI events I have been appalled at the apparent absence of safety precautions -- no lead cars,nomarshals,no first aid. This seems to be because the TLI race organiser is given more discretion in respect of race requirements. On the other hand a BC organiser has to follow the rules ,no variation is pemitted. I have no doubt that some TLI organisers promote to a very high standard but not the ones I've seen.
Prize money is paid at the end of the season and is dependant on income and we pay the top twenty riders of two groups, E/1/2 and 3/4 cats. In essence our races are promoted to a virtual premier calendar standard and on occasions look like premier events judging from the pro riders who enter. Under BC rules there is probably more bureaucracy than TLI but we consider safety is paramount.
I hope you form a successful league but make sure that the duties are clearly identified along with firm commitments from volunteers willing to make a sustained effort. All our organisational work is on line and supervision is done mainly by three people and a committee of seven who meet maybe twice a year. If you need further information, especially in the administrative roles, feel free to ask.
Best of luck.
Regards,
William Greenhalgh
Email reply from Surrey League:
Hey Cameron
I am always happy to answer any questions you have about the Surrey League that you can't find on our web site.
So long as you don't give out money as prizes on the day, you give out points instead, then you should have no problem balancing the books at the end of the season.
After you have paid all the expenses, (hall hire, commissaires, NEG, levies, event registrations etc) you can then split your remaining money between the points. Make sure you also keep a working balance so you have enough money to register the events for the next season.
Glyn
Glyn Durrant
British Cycling South East Region
and Surrey Cycle Racing League
Competition Administrator
glyn@surreyleague.co.uk
Skype: surreyglyn
07852 167477
www.surreyleague.co.uk
www.southeastcycling.co.uk
www.britishcycling.org.uk
I have also had a look at the Surrey Cycle League and Cycling Development North West Road Race League (CDNW) websites to see how they operate. I won’t write down everything here since their respective websites seem very comprehensive but a few points to note:
• Both Leagues are run under the BC.
• Both leagues charge an “affiliation fee” to clubs participating (£60 for Surrey and £50 for CDNW). Surrey charge clubs £300 who wish to participate but don’t actually promote any races.
• Both Leagues place an emphasis on riders having to marshal a designated number of events if they wish to ride.
I contacted both leagues specifically to ask about costs and have copied their respective replies in full…see below:
Email reply from CDNW:
HI Cameron,
If you run the league under TLI then I should think the levies and other charges would be considerably less than being affiliated to British Cycling. For example, the race levy for each rider is £4.00 ( £3 BC levy,£1 regional levy) the insurance for each event is £40. I believe the scale of charges for TLI is much lower but I doubt if their insurance is as comprehensive as B C's. We also employ NEG moto cycle escorts for each of our races and this adds to the cost of promotion, but in terms of event safety, we find them invaluable. Our costs are covered by the charges we make to each rider. We charge £50 to each club who affiliates to Cycling Development NW,but this is optional. However, a rider who is a member of an affiliated club pays £10 to register with the league compared to a charge of £25 if the rider's club is not affiliated. This registration fee is a one off payment and is valid for one year. The race entry fees are £16 per rider.
Our standard running costs for each event are:first aid (Red Cross), commissaires travel fees 27p per mile, moto cycle escort payment, race levies, hire of race HQ usually village halls that vary in price from £40 - £120.
When we set out to form the league some ten years ago the most difficult problem we faced concerned the perennial problem of marshalling. In the early years this was quite difficult and very time consuming. We solved this constant issue by making it compulsory for all riders to marshal one event. No rider can register with the league unless he/she selects one event to marshal. Any rider who fails to marshal is not allowed to start in any race until they select another event to marshal. We also have a riders' code of conduct. This code was put together by the riders and is very worthwhile since it requires from each competitor a minimum level of behaviour in terms of courtesy,no swearing, no littering and respect for other road users.
From the above you have probably gathered that we run a high cost series of races and if we ran it under TLI rules it probably would be cheaper. Having seen TLI events I have been appalled at the apparent absence of safety precautions -- no lead cars,nomarshals,no first aid. This seems to be because the TLI race organiser is given more discretion in respect of race requirements. On the other hand a BC organiser has to follow the rules ,no variation is pemitted. I have no doubt that some TLI organisers promote to a very high standard but not the ones I've seen.
Prize money is paid at the end of the season and is dependant on income and we pay the top twenty riders of two groups, E/1/2 and 3/4 cats. In essence our races are promoted to a virtual premier calendar standard and on occasions look like premier events judging from the pro riders who enter. Under BC rules there is probably more bureaucracy than TLI but we consider safety is paramount.
I hope you form a successful league but make sure that the duties are clearly identified along with firm commitments from volunteers willing to make a sustained effort. All our organisational work is on line and supervision is done mainly by three people and a committee of seven who meet maybe twice a year. If you need further information, especially in the administrative roles, feel free to ask.
Best of luck.
Regards,
William Greenhalgh
Email reply from Surrey League:
Hey Cameron
I am always happy to answer any questions you have about the Surrey League that you can't find on our web site.
So long as you don't give out money as prizes on the day, you give out points instead, then you should have no problem balancing the books at the end of the season.
After you have paid all the expenses, (hall hire, commissaires, NEG, levies, event registrations etc) you can then split your remaining money between the points. Make sure you also keep a working balance so you have enough money to register the events for the next season.
Glyn
Glyn Durrant
British Cycling South East Region
and Surrey Cycle Racing League
Competition Administrator
glyn@surreyleague.co.uk
Skype: surreyglyn
07852 167477
www.surreyleague.co.uk
www.southeastcycling.co.uk
www.britishcycling.org.uk
Good work, gents.
Sounds like a meeting to share info would be worthwhile - if you want me along then any time after 13th June stands a good chance.
As it happens I had a call from Pete Sutton today - Pete is Andy Johnston's equivalent for Yorkshire (Andy covers NE). He'd been told that Yorkshire should be one of the pilot areas this summer for the proposed new race marshalling regime. This would be done on some sort of local order; if successful it would form the basis for changes in the law, and once these take place then all Highways Authorities would have to work to them.
Basically it would involve designated marshals having greater powers, such that they can stop traffic under appropriate circumstances. This would mean that - subject presumably to risk assessments showing it to be a safe alternative - formal traffic management using traffic lights etc could be dispensed with. The caveat is that marshals will have to be trained; this training should be pretty straightforward but it would mean anyone who was likely to marshal an event would need to attend in advance. Again, pilots of this will be run this summer and we, along with other clubs who intend running races, will be invited to attend.
I've talked Pete through our initial ideas on the local race league and he's very supportive. He'd appreciate being kept informed of which clubs might be involved so he can keep them in the loop re all of this.
Sounds like a meeting to share info would be worthwhile - if you want me along then any time after 13th June stands a good chance.
As it happens I had a call from Pete Sutton today - Pete is Andy Johnston's equivalent for Yorkshire (Andy covers NE). He'd been told that Yorkshire should be one of the pilot areas this summer for the proposed new race marshalling regime. This would be done on some sort of local order; if successful it would form the basis for changes in the law, and once these take place then all Highways Authorities would have to work to them.
Basically it would involve designated marshals having greater powers, such that they can stop traffic under appropriate circumstances. This would mean that - subject presumably to risk assessments showing it to be a safe alternative - formal traffic management using traffic lights etc could be dispensed with. The caveat is that marshals will have to be trained; this training should be pretty straightforward but it would mean anyone who was likely to marshal an event would need to attend in advance. Again, pilots of this will be run this summer and we, along with other clubs who intend running races, will be invited to attend.
I've talked Pete through our initial ideas on the local race league and he's very supportive. He'd appreciate being kept informed of which clubs might be involved so he can keep them in the loop re all of this.