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Well the only other point I can make about the TTs is a question really - does anyone find all the TLI paperwork off-putting?

Re the TT stuff. Maybe the angle should be more about recognising the good results (in all their forms) rather than worrying about publicising the perceived poor performances. Awards for "improvement", awards for "participation", recognition for helping....... Handicaps, PBs, speed to weight ratio.....?

As someone involved in this debate on other threads said to me recently, "it's not straightforward". It may well be that where the TT's are concerned, no change is needed, and it's all down to "marketing" them.

With a lot of the changes suggested on here, I'm expecting them to get shot down. There are, often, good reasons why things are as they currently are. But as the club IS growing, and we DO have the opportunity to talk with a sponsor about how they could support new activities, it's at least worth asking questions and suggesting changes.

Come on folks, get those creative juices flowing! It would be a real shame to be looking back in a year's time at missed opportunities.

Just in case any people want to reply and were as confused as me a quick reminder: you click the right hand button which says "Locked" on it - Phil posted a tip on this at the top of the thread.

I find it interesting that the discussion has drifted to the tt series
Because to me the thurs league was probably the most sucessful thing we did last year and appeared to prove

1. That even a fairly "limited" attempt at marketing appears to turn up trumps - the press coverage and posters were excellent
2. Well worth getting in with the tli - just appearing in the handbook drew in a few people and I believe we are incorporating a "championship event" this year? Should be good
3. Format of 10s on the same course mixed in with hilly events was well received - my perception from talking to people who rode them
4. Sharing the work re. spreading the organising seemed to work quite well but we were v reliant on the same good people helping out nearly every week
5. 49 different riders is pretty good
6. We cant be too horrible as some excellent people joined the club as a result

BUT if you look at the website how many "only" rode 1 or 2 events and why?

I think the problem here is that we dont know but it would be good to find out - maybe a postal survey?

I suspect that each person has different reasons and we arent making many mistakes. But if we are it would be nice to hear about it.

imo we just need more of the same for the next evening series - more publicity, more people helping - nothing wrong with the format, courses, distances. Possibly the one thing we could do with is a couple more experienced people turning out without any responsibility on the night just to watch out for new riders but really any Clifton member should be able / willing to do this!

tli paperwork not a big issue
might be nice if we could reduce the cost slightly - its not as if we are offering an hq and cup of tea at the end

re. the publishing times thing. It would bother me if anyone cites this as a reason for not entering - has this happened? I would hope all we need to do is sit down and chat things though. I appreciate it is disheartening to nearly kill yourself and still be minutes off the pace but at the end of the day so what? When you look at the results you look at your own time and then you look at a couple of other people who you might use to gauge your performance. Then you go home having done your best and your legs hurt the next day. Lets face it there aren't that many naturally gifted people around who can turn up as complete beginners or having done no training and rival Nigel - that is all a bit too "Roy of the Rovers"!

OK, picking up a point from earlier in the thread - about improving the Saturday Training rides; Phil suggested two groups with the "B" group doiung a slightly shorter loop with the hope of a link up later. This is what happened fairly regularly when the "A" group was going around Leppington - Kirkham. Claire/Cath/Julia and anyone not quite up to the "A" group standard on the Hills would take up positions at the back of the group leaving the Square and get towed to Buttercrambe. When the going got tough on the first climb just after they let the boy-racers go. The "A" team turned right at the top, the "B" team went straight up GG and left for Kirkham. With a bit of luck the A group then caught the B group on the run in and the B's hung on to York. Worked well am told, but:

Needs briefing out in the Square or it all goes pear-shaped at Buttercrambe.
The A64 crossing on that route is not for the faint hearted.

It can be done.

And my final post for a while (in the hope that somebody else will chip in):

For me the biggest opportunity to do things better is to bring in some coaching. We need some person(s) involved that have some formal training/qualifications and experience to guide and improve the riding of the members. Could include:

Individual training plans
Specific skills training out on the road
Support for riders aiming either at competition or just riding more efficiently/further....

Unfortunately I have no experience about how this could be put into practice/ how it could be set up. I guess we could just "employ people", or put existing club members through coaching qualifications - but then how do we take it from there?

Any ideas?

Oh, and one other thing.....

We've not had many contributing to this thread just yet. That may be simply because many members are reading all this good intentioned and worthy stuff, but have no strong views about the areas so far discussed - if that is so for you then please just post to explain that - that view is as important as anything already posted in many ways.

Just some thoughts on Rob's posts:-

I think the A and B group could work on Saturdays - as you say, it needs briefing at the start; sometimes last year we had people going off in three different directions at Galley Gap.

It would be good to have an alternating ride so we don't go bonkers doing the same each week; presumably there's a short-cut out of the York - Malton -Coneysthorpe - Terrington - York route so the same thing could happen if that was alternated?

I agree completely about coaching, and like Rob, I've got no experience of this. Come on someone who has!!!

And likewise on Rob's last point - please use this discussion board. At the last meeting we all finished up after god-knows-how-long looking very haggard; if we can use this forum to get some ideas kicked around, some vague idea of the balance of views beforehand, we can make better use of our time sat in a real, non-virtual, room together.

Having now been allowed access just a few random thoughts relating to the above:

I Don't understand the need not to publish certain peoples results from the TLI's. Speaking personally I always thought bike racing required an element of ambition whereby if you are disappointed with results to start with then theres no disgrace with that and the only way is up. As Rob says these are about as grass roots as it gets and are probably the least intimidating events I've ridden? However you only have to look at the standard of the riding this year - the winning rides from many would have been of a standard to win in a field of 100 - the bar really has been raised this year and I think success breeds success and this has raised the standard through the whole field. But that shouldn't put anybody off riding?

TLI paperwork shouldn't be an issue - we committed ourselves to the TLI and our now reaping the benefits as it means we can run what are effectively "open" events on our terms that require little organisation. Instaed of losing members which happened with the old Thursday League we are now gaining new members. Also if we organised as CTT events we would have to organise as club events which would restrict who could ride.
I think we should be pleased with the turnout this year with an average of 15 per night and 13 qualifiers. The non qualifiers had all ridden 4 rides or less and most of the names of the non -qualifiers are familiar, established riders - people who might just ride 1 or 2 because they had a free night but wouldn't want to commit to riding enough to qualify? I'm not in a position to be contacting these riders - I did not keep copies of the entry forms.

I also think we should stick to the format used in previous years for Saturday rides and Chain gangs so everyone knows where they are going and for how long. The two group chaingang idea could be good on the present route we use on a Tuesday but will require sufficient numbers. It would be good if everyone on a ride was in a group where they could contribute.

With both TT and racing maybe some more help/clearer advice on what needs to be done to enter - make it as easy as possible i.e. what license is needed for what, what forms to fill in, where to send them, what do you get back and how do you enter once you have the thing...just practical basics really.

If there is a series like the TLI ones maybe have a bit of a drive before the first event to encourage folk to sign up and get involved. I think it's just a case of encouragement and information.

Maybe I'm daft but I've asked a few people while out on rides and I'm still none the wiser on how to go about this or where is best to start.

For the record I very much like the two groups idea (1 or 2 laps) on the chaingang.

On the subject of sponsorship should we not be asking what we can offer a sponsor as well as what we want from them given it has to benefit both parties otherwise it's just a charity donation? This would help in identifying who could be approached as we would need to have something to offer in return such as publicity, new customers, increased sales etc.

Finally got access to this after I found out that "First Claim" member means you are an ordinary member and not that you have been in the club for 15 years or undergone a bizarre hazing ritual. Maybe other people don't know this? How about just giving all the registered people who are Clifton members access without them having to ask? I didn't realise I could come to meetings either. Lingo schmingo.

* Give people the opportunity to do the Thursday TT's without their times going up on the website, so they can treat them as practice sessions

Bad plan. The TTs are a race - let's keep them that way.

I confess. My idea bravely brought up by Phil.

Yes, was a reason that I didn't enter the TTs over the summer. Is it vain? Doesn't feel like it to me. Even if my times improved over the series, I would still be coming in last every week and that's a bit boring and probably somewhat demoralising. I generally got the sense of inpending intimidation on Thursday afternoons and resultingly serially cracked open a beer instead of jumping on my bike. I like Robs idea of PB times. What about having a seperate division (here we go again ) for people who don't want to 'compete' in the main field for athletically challenged reasons? Can't really think what this would look like on the website but ranking winner --> slowest doesn't really do it for me (speaking only for me).

How about just giving all the registered people who are Clifton members access without them having to ask?

Ah, here be dragons. There are actually two types of members.

First claim: this is what you think of as a member.

Second claim: these are actually members of another club first, but may want to race in Clifton only events. I'm not sure how many second claim members we actually have these days mind.

What about having a seperate division (here we go again Rolling Eyes) for people who don't want to 'compete' in the main field for athletically challenged reasons?

How would that work? You are competing in the ladies field anyway, not against the men, and that's a much smaller set and the times will seem much less intimidating.

I guess the thing that is easy to do is that if you want to turn up and ride and be told a time without it being recorded at all that should be possible. Paul?

I really rather avoid special casing the database/website unless there is a large demand for it.

My thoughts TLI series

TLI series was a sucess its easy to organise and we increased participation from 2005, dont change the format its already a success the flat 10's are great for newcomers.
By changing the format it may encourage some whilst discouraging others

Promotion is the key to more entries/newcomers in 2007 -
Who are the target audience examples - current members, students, people who ride their bikes?

Target them - with a message that they understand and if they want to come they will come

As the first intiative - have a 'newcomers to TT FAQ' section on the website similar to the 'getting started'
non racers can also get involved

'newcomers to TT FAQ' section on the website

This is a good idea - what should go in it? Someone newer to it than me should probably write the text....