Clifton CC

I joined Cycleworks for the second time tonight, really not a good ride at all unfortunately.

It started well at a fairly steady pace and started to crank up towards Crayke where we had our first puncture, then another quickly after in Easingwold so there was eagerness to get a bit of pace for the remainder of the ride.

Another few miles on, we came across a couple of horse riders who were stationary on a grass verge on the left side of the road. The whole bunch shouted "horses", "easy" etc and started to slow down immediately and moved to the opposite side of the road. But the noise and the sight of 20 brightly clothed bike riders frightened the horses who started to run back towards their stables which was only 50 metres or so up the road. By this stage all bike riders had stopped and we watched as one of the two horses slipped while turning back into the stables and the young female rider fell off.

We went as a bunch to the entrance to the stables to see if the girl was OK and the other rider started shouting that she had asked us to stop. The reality was that we all had stopped but it takes some distance to stop a group of 20 riders travelling at 25mph+. I know from experience 2 months ago that braking sharply in front of someone at those speeds is not a good thing!

We started to explain this but then it all got a bit argumentative with someone in our bunch shouting "you wouldn't stop for us in your 4*4" and other something similar comments. I and several others left not wanting to be tarred with the same "idiot cyclist" brush.

Real shame as it was just one of those situations that can happen with horses (I have ridden horses a lot myself over the years and been thrown off for much less). Thankfully Jamie decided to take task and told everyone off for such bad behaviour. I think it was probably only one person in the whole bunch but it painted us all in a bad light.

In truth the general standard tonight was one of the worst group rides I've ever done.
5 or 6 riders pulled out on a Dutch HGV on the A64 travelling at speed, the very place where a cyclist sadly died a few years ago. The same few were at the front for the horse incident.
All punctures tonight were avoidable due to pot holes not being pointed out.
Sadly the same few numb heads pulled out on a car just before Flawith, car in bunch again.
Not to mention all the switching and pace changes in the bunch which cause Fraz to almost go over the bars.

Always the same few who seem incapable of learning.
If riding standards are this low an injury or worse is inevitable.
I can't understand why people don't look out for each other.

Next week the ride should be in a class room.

I'm actually at a bit of a loss as how to resolve the appalling conduct to be honest.
I really hope the Clifton chain gang doesn't get ruined in this way but I think it's almost the end of the road for this ride if tonight's is a benchmark.
Might re-start the historical VC York ride from the bench.

Quite depressed tonight because of it.

I was one of the riders on the A64 having relied on a "clear" call from ahead. Thankfully I saw the lorry just as I went on to the road and shouted to the group behind which hopefully stopped most of them from continuing.

I agree with Chris's comments - I have felt significantly safer on most Clifton rides than I did today. Although I didn't really know what to expect since this was only my second time out on this ride. It is a bit worrying if that is the normal standard.

Crayke is tuesday now then is it?

What difference will starting from the bench make? it will still be the same riders.

Sorry to hear the difficulties. As cyclists and racing cyclists we certainly don't want to alienate non-cylists and re-inforce stereotypes to the general public and Daily Mail readers, as well as horse riders.

However, I have generally, over my time here in York, been disappointed by a level of riding demonstrated by some people (not all). This does need to be addressed. If someone cannot ride appropriately and safely with the people around them, then they either need to learn or not ride in a group.

I seriously think the people who cannot ride need to be educated on what they are doing wrong and how they can ride better. The next ride probably does need to be in a classroom, but why not make that a mobile classroom. Riders could be politely educated into the merits of group riding and chaingang style, through and off riding. No point in shouting and swearing at riders as this puts up the emotional blinkers, although it did me no harm, certainly if I did something stupid. But that was a different time and place. Although I like to think the Hull scene at the time taught me a lot.

Part of the problem as well, is that there are some very fit people coming into group riding who just don't know how to ride as a group, or people not quite fit enough losing the capability of using their brain because they are suffering so much.

I think you could draw up a list of points to consider and then remind people of this. It could be split into two sections; safety and group riding etiquette.

Safety could be; shouting out potholes, obstacles, dangers, passing cars (both ways), horses, runners, pedestrians - and making sure everyone has hear - pass it down the line.

Then there is safe riding. Don't brake hard, call out if breaking or moving. Don't make sudden changes of direction (unless your last name is Ferrari - and look what happened there!) and generally be aware and try to keep everyone safe, as if their life depended on it. (which it could).

Then group riding etiquette, how to ride as a group, how long to do turns, how to switch sides in the wind, how to ease off when you go through so the guy behind doesn't have to sprint through, keep someone on your wheel and don't try to ride them off it just cos you feel strong (save that for the last bit). How to chaingang in large groups and then small groups (the technique is different).

Well, who knows. It has been my bug bear for group riding and having a responsible job and a mortgage and kids, the thought of hitting the deck cos some bozo can't ride safely has appealed less and less. Maybe it can be changed.

The old hands like Chris and Jamie etc. maybe need to educate those newer riders, and for them not to be offended if their riding is corrected. After all we all make mistakes. If you see a fat looking sprinter type on a chaingang and he gives you some advice, don't think; "fat bustard", what does he know, because he may have been riding and racing for 20 years and may know a thing or two, even though he may not be as fast as he was!

Good luck, hope the education goes well and the standard of riding improves. May get out to do one last chaingang with you all!!

Starting from the bench means, or I think it means, that it will be a VC Ride and they will feel that it is their ride and would be less inhibited about telling people if they are riding inappropriately. Perhaps they would also ask people not to ride if they could not ride safetly or appropriately?? Or at least I think this is what is meant??

Is part of the problem that the group is so large?

The pace then is variable - people at the back don't know what is going on & newer/less experienced riders who might not come through are riding together rather than interspersed in the group amongst the old hands.

I first started group riding on the sat training rides. These were 10/2 riders max - I had never ridden close to anyone's wheel before & had no-idea really about group riding other than what I had seen/read.
The fact that I was with experienced riders who took the time to tell me what was going on & what I should be doing (thanks guys) - meant that I quickly got up to speed (and then fell off it again when you all got fitter, but that's another story...).
Anyway, Had I been in a large group I would have felt out of touch and maybe would have made more errors/been shouted at/got defensive etc etc

In my observation (obviously no expert!) people who come out on training rides think they KNOW how to ride in a group and generally seem out to prove their worth - so yelling at them, or suggesting a classroom lesson is likely to get an aggressive reaction. (too much testosterone if you ask me ).

Splitting the groups up a bit might allow for a bit more of a casual approach and maybe everone would be better off. It might also be more inclusive. Anyone new to group riding reading posts like this might feel intimidated that they are not the experienced/elite few & then they will be anxious in the group, which is going to make things worse.

Just my twopence worth anyway.

By the way, 25+ riders in a group will ALWAYS spook horses, no matter how you slow down. There are a few old TdF clips where horses jump out of fields and follow the bunch - nightmare stuff. And reason again to split up a bit really.

I was on said ride until Crayke, when I turned off and headed into York. Previous experience says I would have been dropped shortly after Easingwold anyhow, and I figured I'd be back at more like my desired time of 8pm for other commitments.

What I saw of the A64 incident (being amongst the first handful to stop) was pretty worrying. Second time I've done that route, and the second time I've questioned the wisdom of that bit of route, though I realise alternatives are anything but abundant.

Having been late anyway, and had to chase on with a former colleague who appeared from nowhere at a similar moment, I didn't particularly register the erratic pace till after the A64 - I assumed we were just regrouping, but as soon as it sped up, it slowed again. Not sure quite what happened, but I found myself amongst 6 others going through and off, but this stopped shortly after the level crossing when our 'break' was caught (or got tired?). On one level, this was quite fun - on another level, it was very confusing.

On my first trip out with that chaingang (a Tuesday, but on the Pock route) I was informed that everyone rode as pairs, then dropped back on the inside. This ride was anything but, with 3's appearing constantly, and the aforementioned switch to through and off.

I entirely agree that the 20-odd ride needed to be split. I would be quite happy if this were by means of a breakaway or by means of a staggered start, but either way, something needs to be done.

NB: the rides already start at the bench opposite the shop - is this not the bench being referred to.

Also, is there something I should have been following in order to be warned that the route was the 'Thursday' route rather than the 'Tuesday' (Pocklington) route? Is this a permanent change?

(PS, and completely irrelevant point, the clip Jess is referring to is actually Paris-Nice, but often passed off as TdF. Having seen it, yes, its a terrifying thought that it could happen to any group ride.)

I had a chat with Chris about this tonight, I wasn't out on Tuesday but I can imagine what it was like. The VC gangs of the 90's were a bunch of maybe 10 or 12 on a good night, just about everyone was racing at a good level on a weekend and knew what to do - get in a few breaks in races and you quickly learn how to ride.
The chaingangs have changed, many don't race, some have just bought a bike. I think that's great and it's fun riding in a big bunch, but you've got to give people time, and a little advice from those who've done it is all that's needed.

I started joining the Tuesday ride when it commenced again this year, and really enjoyed it. However, with the inclement conditions numbers were low (10-15 max). I think its great that the more experienced riders welcome others on the rides and I was made to feel welcome and was given some good advice. As the weather improved numbers shot up and I felt increasingly concerned from a safety perspective. As a triathlete I do not profess to have the best handling skills but I have trained in a group with Clifton for a number of years without any difficulties or dramas. I have stopped doing the Tuesday ride firstly due to safety concerns, and secondly as a result of an unfortunate incident when I last went out on that ride. I am not for 'naming' poeple but one of the more experienced riders clipped my wheel from behind and fell off. I was excused by that rider of 'not being able ride in a straight line' and made to feel an idiot in front of everyone. Another experienced rider (who I respect) pointed out that he was looking behind him when he rode across my rear wheel. Its a shame as the 'acuser' was actually one the guys who gave me some good advice and encouragement at the start. I now ride the Clifton chaingang instead which has far lower numbers and consequently feels far safer and generally has a 'friendlier' and more organised feel. My late wife was the rider who was killed on the A64. I feel, therefore, I am more than entitled to have my say on the safety aspect of matters. If you do not make the numbers and group sizes smaller another tragedy will happen.

Last Tuesday was shocking but was not a typical ride so please do not think that all rides are like this. Tonight's went very smoothly, steady pace, pot holes were pointed out, junctions checked and no horses; only a braying donkey.