Is it cancelled for deffo?
I'd be happy to help, was gonna ride it but I can just do my training to the TT instead if it means the TT can go ahead.
Thursday TT
Moderator: Moderators
Deffo cancelled. As Heather says, she (and all involved in organising these events) has a day job and better things to do than spend hours trying to remind people that riding this series requires you to marshal at least one event. Each winter we find ourselves looking at the upcoming SPOCO series and wondering what we need to do to avoid the weekly grief of pleading for marshals. Clearly we're not there yet. Volunteers for next week please?
Grrr, this one is the only one I was hoping to do this year after a long lay off from competition and was really looking forward to doing this flat 10.
The TT's have once again been well attended with many riders taking part, this only happens if people offer to give up a very small amount of time on just one evening for the short summer series.
I feel a bit miffed off after I have helped at four of these events this year.
However the decision to cancel the TT this week is entirely correct for safety reasons.
Ian H.
The TT's have once again been well attended with many riders taking part, this only happens if people offer to give up a very small amount of time on just one evening for the short summer series.
I feel a bit miffed off after I have helped at four of these events this year.
However the decision to cancel the TT this week is entirely correct for safety reasons.
Ian H.
Are we there yet
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MichaelCarter
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 12:16 pm
Gutted. I was going to do it (and with a marshal commitment already promised to do next weeks I don't feel guilty) but I'm mainly gutted for people like IanH. Ian like he said has done absolutely loads (as do so many) and his chance has gone because others who do nothing haven't come forward.
I'm sure what will be happening in the next 24 hours is people will think "I could have done that" and actually want to volunteer. The "IT'S CANCELLED" message will shock and invoke many reactions like Will's. Yes we could think "why the heck didn't you volunteer before?!" but is there any mileage at all in saying something like "volunteer by midday Wednesday or it won't happen"?
I know there's always a cut off point but (and I'm pleading for others here) could we give people 3 hours on Wednesday morning to come forward with a midday cut off?
I'm a web developer and have what I think is a really good idea how we can use the web and fill every single marshalling spot for the whole of next year before even the first race but I'll liaise with the organisers first on that one (matter for another day - Tonights mission is I want ianH to get his deserved race in this season!)
Michael
I'm sure what will be happening in the next 24 hours is people will think "I could have done that" and actually want to volunteer. The "IT'S CANCELLED" message will shock and invoke many reactions like Will's. Yes we could think "why the heck didn't you volunteer before?!" but is there any mileage at all in saying something like "volunteer by midday Wednesday or it won't happen"?
I know there's always a cut off point but (and I'm pleading for others here) could we give people 3 hours on Wednesday morning to come forward with a midday cut off?
I'm a web developer and have what I think is a really good idea how we can use the web and fill every single marshalling spot for the whole of next year before even the first race but I'll liaise with the organisers first on that one (matter for another day - Tonights mission is I want ianH to get his deserved race in this season!)
Michael
I did not volunteer before because I wanted to do the TT's, I wanted to do the flat one especially, but since it's canceled I thought of volunteering because maybe there might have being a 0.0001% chance getting more volunteers might get it back on track as it was Tuesday.
I've not being back from Manchester long so I wanted to get a good 5 events in since I wussed out of tt'ing other years, if I already had 5 events in I'd volunteer for more.
I've not being back from Manchester long so I wanted to get a good 5 events in since I wussed out of tt'ing other years, if I already had 5 events in I'd volunteer for more.
Agree, very annoying, but if it is going to be cancelled then we have to give enough notice so I think was the right call to make yesterday.
I was going to ride it also since I haven't done enough to qualify yet & probably won't now. I have marshaled once & Very nearly offerred to marshal again so that it could go ahead, but i sort of feel that it means the same people end up marshaling all the time (as per Ian H!) which isn't really the point.
I seem to remember we have fewer events this year as a result of last year's cancellations so it is a shame to see it happening again.
Maybe next year we don't let people sign on unless they have agreed to marshal a stage?
Edited to Add - Will you need to volunteer BEFORE it is cancelled. That's sort of the point.
I was going to ride it also since I haven't done enough to qualify yet & probably won't now. I have marshaled once & Very nearly offerred to marshal again so that it could go ahead, but i sort of feel that it means the same people end up marshaling all the time (as per Ian H!) which isn't really the point.
I seem to remember we have fewer events this year as a result of last year's cancellations so it is a shame to see it happening again.
Maybe next year we don't let people sign on unless they have agreed to marshal a stage?
Edited to Add - Will you need to volunteer BEFORE it is cancelled. That's sort of the point.
I think we need clear demarcation of who is doing what. Don't get me wrong the more people we have stood around course in yellow bibs the better. We have youngsters / new riders every week and if anyone did get into difficulties the closer they are to a marshal the better. But on the other hand there is no point in missing out on a ride in order to marshal and then turning up to find twice as many as we really need and then the following week when you do want to ride find out there aren't enough.Each winter we find ourselves looking at the upcoming SPOCO series and wondering what we need to do to avoid the weekly grief of pleading for marshals.
We should not be afraid of saying no we have enough marshals please do another night. Or else put people on a reserve list in case another marshal drops out. Some people are a pain and will "insist" it is the only week they can do blah blah. Tough love is order of the day. Such a person still needs to do another night and if they don't will fail to qualify. If you really have such a packed diary then shouldn't have problem getting name down in advance in order to secure slot.
It is always the case that some people leave it until the last few races to volunteer every year.
And it is also the case that some people don't bother helping at all (and hence do not qualify) year in year out.
If you are in danger of winning the series and wish to decline the award am sure a quiet word would remove you from final standings. Otherwise i can't see any excuse for not volunteering - even if you decide time trialling is not for you after one event, or you only intend to ride a couple, should still help out to provide others with chance. If you are such a superstar that can't spare a nights training then by all means ride out and back and we will find you an easy job (you would be surprised how many people turn up saying can they have an easy job because "need to get away" or "haven't had their tea yet" - which leaves organiser grating their teeth at thought of collecting in signs with rumbling tum at 9pm etc.)
So what to do?
We currently have an overall series organiser (in fact two this year because we split the organiser/administrator role) and we have individual race organisers.
Do we need a third "series" role to organise the marshals. If i thought it would improve the situation would volunteer for this myself. Happy to discuss with series organisers / committee for next year. But i would have a few provisos on taking it on.
We should make it very public as to who is volunteering, how often, and when - the series results do show this so whilst i am not in favour of finger pointing do please take a look and say thanks to the good guys. If you are nervous about volunteering then we will pair you up with someone. Ditto if would like to have a go at timekeeping.
I dont see why J/Juv should not help out as timekeepers helper or else starter (as opposed to being out on course which i would not be happy about). I know many of the parents help week in week out which is much appreciated and would count in lieu.
Can see the argument for a web based solution in terms of visibility but this could be as simple as updating the series web page?
What we need to get round is the lack of dependability of when events will take place / people who never help out.
2 thoughts:
I think we took a good step forward in saying that we will reduce the number of events this year. And also to make sure we have at least an organiser for each event before publishing dates. We could extend this to say we must have starter / time keeper and at least enough marshals up front to cover all "give way" junctions or identified "hot spots" BEFORE we include date in calendar?
Why not some sort of "loyalty" card scheme for thurs nights. Each time you ride get card stamped. No more than 5 rides without helping. Carries over from one season to next. In fact might not even need loyalty card. We could just publish list of names of people who will not be allowed to enter on line until volunteer at least once and if they have gall to turn up and request ride turn away?
Not been able to make Thursdays this year - either to ride or marshall.... 
Radical suggestion (won't suit everyone I know) - why not offer 'expenses' to marshalls and raise entry fees to - say - a fiver. ?? the general club funds could also subsidise the cost to a small degree.
Not saying that this is ideal but some folk might be more willing to 'volunteer' if there's something in it for them and if this means the events get to go ahead then it's justified.
Radical suggestion (won't suit everyone I know) - why not offer 'expenses' to marshalls and raise entry fees to - say - a fiver. ?? the general club funds could also subsidise the cost to a small degree.
Not saying that this is ideal but some folk might be more willing to 'volunteer' if there's something in it for them and if this means the events get to go ahead then it's justified.
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MichaelCarter
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 12:16 pm
I think the key is to think from the perspective of the potential marshals not from the perspective of the club.... what I mean by this is...
Using me as an example. Let's look at next year. I've actually already been geeky enough to plan my training for the next 16 months based around what races I want to do next year. I even know which thursdays I don't want to be racing and have already pinpointed them as a potential marshalling evening. A load of people I expect will be doing next years planning in autumn. I think most people would happily say "I want to do a few races and help out at a couple" and happily commit.
Under the current system though I wouldn't do that, I'd wait 'til the time trials started next May, wait for the postings appealing for help and offer to help if I can - but in the back of my head I'd think "you never know they might have enough, I'll race it / do something else instead". What invariably would then happen is the usual suspects do the marshaling and the willing few are bashing their heads against brick walls begging / pleading to get people to pull finger and events get cancelled.
So to me, the solution is obvious. Let's have a clever web page (I can build this). It lists all the races in the year where marshalling is required, and lists names of people who have already offered help. The viewer can then add their name live to that list and it updates straight away. I bet you anything, being able to see your name on the list of marshals will automatically make people add their name to it and I bet we'd have a full quota of marshals before the series even starts. I don't like going to the dentist but after every appointment I make a commitment for 6 months into the future, marhalling is more pleasant than that - people will do it!
Those of you who organise these things do a fantastic and I'm sure thankless task most of the time. You shouldn't be in a position where you feel you have to constantly ask, and I think this will work.
Michael
Using me as an example. Let's look at next year. I've actually already been geeky enough to plan my training for the next 16 months based around what races I want to do next year. I even know which thursdays I don't want to be racing and have already pinpointed them as a potential marshalling evening. A load of people I expect will be doing next years planning in autumn. I think most people would happily say "I want to do a few races and help out at a couple" and happily commit.
Under the current system though I wouldn't do that, I'd wait 'til the time trials started next May, wait for the postings appealing for help and offer to help if I can - but in the back of my head I'd think "you never know they might have enough, I'll race it / do something else instead". What invariably would then happen is the usual suspects do the marshaling and the willing few are bashing their heads against brick walls begging / pleading to get people to pull finger and events get cancelled.
So to me, the solution is obvious. Let's have a clever web page (I can build this). It lists all the races in the year where marshalling is required, and lists names of people who have already offered help. The viewer can then add their name live to that list and it updates straight away. I bet you anything, being able to see your name on the list of marshals will automatically make people add their name to it and I bet we'd have a full quota of marshals before the series even starts. I don't like going to the dentist but after every appointment I make a commitment for 6 months into the future, marhalling is more pleasant than that - people will do it!
Those of you who organise these things do a fantastic and I'm sure thankless task most of the time. You shouldn't be in a position where you feel you have to constantly ask, and I think this will work.
Michael
My situation is such that wrt evenings I find that work is variable to a degree where I cannot predict in advance when I will be able get away and so cannot commit in advance. I had hoped to make a few TTs this year and would expect to marshall/help at one had I done so. As it's turned out this hasn't happened due to work demands. My point is that some people are able to plan ahead, other's can't simply due to the nature of their employment/responsibilities.
The web-site idea is a good one - can't see how it would worsen the situation and would enable all to see 'where we're at' with helpers.
Still think that if the cost/reward ratio was altered in favour of marshals/helpers that more competitors (and maybe non-competitors of whom there are already a number - chapeau) would be encouraged to volunteer.
The web-site idea is a good one - can't see how it would worsen the situation and would enable all to see 'where we're at' with helpers.
Still think that if the cost/reward ratio was altered in favour of marshals/helpers that more competitors (and maybe non-competitors of whom there are already a number - chapeau) would be encouraged to volunteer.
Okay, I'll suggest a different approach to it, just in the spirit of kicking ideas around.
Why would anyone join Clifton? Why not just ride yer bike? I'm assuming no-one does it because they're desperate to ride around in red and black, or because it'll look good on their CV. People join because "the club" organises things. More precisely, people in the club organise things. Join it, and you are one of those people in the club.
Lots of stuff happens because week after week, year after year, members sort out routes, destinations, cafe stops, police and highways approvals so that other members can do stuff collectively. They agree to help out, marshal, bake cakes or process entries, or whatever needs doing.
So, why should everyone take on some of this, rather than simply turn up to ride, knowing that this mysterious "they" will sort it all out and do all the necessary work? Simply because it won't work if they don't; the faithful few will get bored, or irritated, or decide they'd like to simply ride for a change. Then events will drop off the calendar, get cancelled, just not happen. Half the fun of cycling, and all the fun of cycling in a club, will be gone.
I can understand the "crank up the price and pay people" argument, but it's the first step towards "Sportive Mentality" - charge participants twenty-five quid to ride on the roads free from expectation to put anything back in. Maybe that has its place, but I'd argue it's not in club cycling. I also understand people have different amounts of time, but I've never really spotted a link between "busy-ness" and unwillingness to volunteer, somewhere, sometime.
Every member of Clifton who does a social ride or club run benefits from the club; everyone who rides a race or a TT benefits from the body of clubs who organise these things. All this only works if everyone puts a little bit back in. Isn't it more fun to do it before some desperate organiser has your arm up behind your back? Isn't it more fun to do it simply because you know that's what works, if you're part of a club?
Why would anyone join Clifton? Why not just ride yer bike? I'm assuming no-one does it because they're desperate to ride around in red and black, or because it'll look good on their CV. People join because "the club" organises things. More precisely, people in the club organise things. Join it, and you are one of those people in the club.
Lots of stuff happens because week after week, year after year, members sort out routes, destinations, cafe stops, police and highways approvals so that other members can do stuff collectively. They agree to help out, marshal, bake cakes or process entries, or whatever needs doing.
So, why should everyone take on some of this, rather than simply turn up to ride, knowing that this mysterious "they" will sort it all out and do all the necessary work? Simply because it won't work if they don't; the faithful few will get bored, or irritated, or decide they'd like to simply ride for a change. Then events will drop off the calendar, get cancelled, just not happen. Half the fun of cycling, and all the fun of cycling in a club, will be gone.
I can understand the "crank up the price and pay people" argument, but it's the first step towards "Sportive Mentality" - charge participants twenty-five quid to ride on the roads free from expectation to put anything back in. Maybe that has its place, but I'd argue it's not in club cycling. I also understand people have different amounts of time, but I've never really spotted a link between "busy-ness" and unwillingness to volunteer, somewhere, sometime.
Every member of Clifton who does a social ride or club run benefits from the club; everyone who rides a race or a TT benefits from the body of clubs who organise these things. All this only works if everyone puts a little bit back in. Isn't it more fun to do it before some desperate organiser has your arm up behind your back? Isn't it more fun to do it simply because you know that's what works, if you're part of a club?
It's good that people are coming forward with ideas - maybe everyone should get together after the series has ended to hammer out a few things (to make sure it goes ahead next year) so that when the OGM comes around, things are decided.
Not being able to get enough marshals isn't a new thing - the numbers of riders we get is - and this means 4 people manning the start/finish for the shorter events. We have also moved away from leaving junctions un-marshalled (a few years ago we might just put a 'turn left' arrow) and we now specify that we will have someone on every junction - and that's how it's going to stay. Junior riders can't marshall on their own for insurance reasons - tho they could help at the start/finish.
The dates for the events are published quite early on (I know because I put them on the website) - as was an appeal for helpers. DarrenB volunteered weeks in advance of the start! We did have some early issues with the email address but that has been sorted for a while. Michael - a 'volunteers' web page is a great idea though I think!
We set the cutoff last year at Tuesday night for one reason - the organiser (me last year, Heather this year) have day jobs/families etc and it gives us time to sort everything out (including phoning/emailing etc). I personally think Tuesday evening is late enough.
Paying people is a thought but it might also be opening a can of worms! and we may need to raise the entry quite a bit to cover such an expense - bearing in mind we can't guarantee how many riders we'll get (and the weather) plus the levies per rider that we pay to the CTT.
Since me and Paul we organising this weeks event - we're pretty disappointed (esp as Paul had arranged to leave work early), and I know Heather is, given the amount of work she's put into it so far.
Cath
Not being able to get enough marshals isn't a new thing - the numbers of riders we get is - and this means 4 people manning the start/finish for the shorter events. We have also moved away from leaving junctions un-marshalled (a few years ago we might just put a 'turn left' arrow) and we now specify that we will have someone on every junction - and that's how it's going to stay. Junior riders can't marshall on their own for insurance reasons - tho they could help at the start/finish.
The dates for the events are published quite early on (I know because I put them on the website) - as was an appeal for helpers. DarrenB volunteered weeks in advance of the start! We did have some early issues with the email address but that has been sorted for a while. Michael - a 'volunteers' web page is a great idea though I think!
We set the cutoff last year at Tuesday night for one reason - the organiser (me last year, Heather this year) have day jobs/families etc and it gives us time to sort everything out (including phoning/emailing etc). I personally think Tuesday evening is late enough.
Paying people is a thought but it might also be opening a can of worms! and we may need to raise the entry quite a bit to cover such an expense - bearing in mind we can't guarantee how many riders we'll get (and the weather) plus the levies per rider that we pay to the CTT.
Since me and Paul we organising this weeks event - we're pretty disappointed (esp as Paul had arranged to leave work early), and I know Heather is, given the amount of work she's put into it so far.
Cath
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MichaelCarter
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 12:16 pm
What I've been blathering on about....
http://www.yorkcollege.ac.uk/michael-test/1.html
Just a very basic mock up with mock data at the moment and it won't record the data but you'll get the idea...
Michael
http://www.yorkcollege.ac.uk/michael-test/1.html
Just a very basic mock up with mock data at the moment and it won't record the data but you'll get the idea...
Michael
