Clifton CC

A posting in a bit more positive than my last one . Tuesday night was the next round of the TLI at Wistow. I'd planned to do more of these this year, but after doing two of the early races, because of the usual conflicts I'd not managed to do any more. So naturally with little racing in my legs and after finishing work late and not having time to do a warm up I was rather nervous. Only three groups this time and I set off with Dave Cook in the first group with Phil and Ian H in the next.

I'd not done this circuit before and didn't know what to expect, but after completing the first lap, the nerves had gone, I knew because of the circuit I'd be finishing the race with the lead group; windless, wide roads and with only two climbs (railway bridges) which weirdly for someone who really can't climb, small steady drags like these seem to be the easiest bit.

The riding in our group was a bit strange, one chap attacked at many opportunities, Dave and I would go with him and he'd want us to work with him to get away from the rest of the group which seemed odd, it was better to keep the group together, more helpers to hold off the faster groups, so naturally his attacks came to nothing. Most of the group were very keen to get the prime and there was a strong sprint for it. I couldn't contest it and Dave didn't either. Trouble was after that the rest of the group seemed spent, unwilling or unable to ride. It's not a criticism of the other riders, it's a race and people can ride however they want but the result was Dave would do long turns on the front with no-one able to help other than me. It's indicative how spent rest of the group was that I'd end up on the front for long turns chugging on at 23-24mph (normally at that pace you'd expect people to come straight past you) until Dave had got his breath back and got us back to race pace. Clearly with this going on we weren't going to hold off the other groups. It's a shame Ian H hadn't started with us, I know how Ian rides and I think the three of us would have worked together very well, who knows we might have even held off the other groups, failing that, three Clifton guys working as a team on the front, driving the group would have made some good photos on the TLI website.

Inevitably the lead group caught us containing Phil and Ian, second or third lap from the end. It was comfortable enough to sit in and keep a good position, but there was no way I was going to put my nose into the wind at speeds of 27+. It didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that the winner would have a good position out of the final bend, the trick was getting it and somehow I don't know how I was at the back of the group once we were through the bend. The sprint opened up and in no time there was a gap between the leaders and me and I came in on Ian's wheel. Phil I think got tenth and Dave fifteenth.

It seems only now I realise to succeed at racing you need to able to do two quite separate things, firstly you need aerobic ability to ride at race pace, that just takes some good miles in your legs with some of it at high intensity. Having got that ability must have pure anaerobic power for the sprint. I don't have that. If I do another year's cycling and do a full series of TLIs I've always hoped I must talk to people, Phil, Muzzy? who do have a sprint to find out just how it is achieved.

Don't let all this talk put you off the TLI's, I rate them. We're busy people and they give you a chance to dip your toe in the water of racing without having to give cycling full time commitment.

A quick view from the second group. It was a fairly large group; for about half of the time pretty much the full bunch were taking turns to roll through (albeit a bit raggedly at times) and the rest of the time about a dozen or so riders - including Ian and I - were prepared to keep driving it along. Consequently we didn't hang around and in addition to catching the first group we stayed a good two or three minutes ahead of the scratch group at the finish.

As Broomwagon said, positioning is all and on the way into the last corner I drifted down the outside and parked up behind someone I knew could sprint. I came out of the last corner about eighth and in too big a gear, but wound it up steadily and got to fourth wheel before being overhauled by a few riders in the last few yards. I was pretty sure I was ninth or tenth but didn't get spotted by the judges, and after the grief that Cliff has had in previous races from bolshy riders I certainly wasn't going to give him a hard time.

The numbers from the power meter give a bit of insight into Broomwagon's comments on "what it takes". The race was 32.2 miles in 1:13:29, so 26.3mph. Normalised power was 247W which is somewhere near my threshold, so anyone who can beat me in a TT (which is about half the club) has the basic aerobic fitness to cope with a ride like this. What's needed on top is sprint speed for jumping out of corners - there were about thirty points at which I was doing 5-10secs sprints above 600W - not absolute flat-out but definitely out of the saddle and giving it some. And the final sprint; it's about 45sec from the last corner to the line; I was putting out 500-750W throughout and doing between 30-35mph once I'd accelerated out of the corner. The other skill - which helps with having enough in the tank for the sprinting - is knowing how and when to drift up through the bunch without it costing too much energy. Of course in a different race, if you want to get in a break, different abilities come into play.

As Broomwagon says, the TLI's are good fun, and a good way into racing. The handicapping doesn't always work perfectly but if you don't take them too seriously they're good experience. How about a big enough Team Clifton to get serious about the team prize again next year?

Reading these posts have strengthened my desire to compete in the TLI series next year. Especially it's very interesting hearing Phil's account of the power levels he used last night.
Riding the Spocos has shown me given a reason I can ride pretty hard when I need to but group riding appeals to me more than the individual TT.

I think next year it is a mandatory thing that I start racing. Just need to get used to being cramped in a bunch and getting shouted at.

"Don't let all this talk put you off the TLI's, I rate them. We're busy people and they give you a chance to dip your toe in the water of racing without having to give cycling full time commitment"

Hang on Broom Wagon - we've been here before. Lets start by sweeping away the misconceptions. To race at a level above entry level TLI / BC events doesn't necessarily mean you have to be at it full time. Here's me, humble 3rd cat, full time job, wife child etc who gets to ride his bike 3 times a week. I rode an Elite race last Sunday. When I say rode I actually managed 2 miles before hittting the deck but thats another story. My point is I had no fear stepping up to that level. I took Alistair Kay - an Elite and unlucky not to win on Sunday - full time job, wife, two kids, trains riding to and from work. Kit Gilham was 4th on Sunday, wife and baby god knows how he trains. Yeah they're talented, they're also organised and ambitious which might be the two things setting them apart from me and thee, BW and your not the only one with limited time!

I've said it before my recent TLI experiences have been a deeply frustrating waste of time and money. Its a different world in the scratch group as last Tuesday demonstrated, to those unlucky enough to be in it. Give me weekday training anyday - its cheaper, you know what you're going to get out of it and you get home for 8:00pm!

You have me down as a bit of a sprinter. I'm sat here trying to think when was the last time I actually sprinted for a place - probably our event in 2007? I'm actually not that much of a sprinter but quite good if its an uphill finish - more Hushovd than Cavendish - hah! I practice sprinting uphill in the big ring. There's no secret - don't waste energy and arrive at the finish to knackered to do anything and don't start from too far back which is why I haven't sprinted for anything recently!
I'm out Sunday BW - happy to discuss further.

Some points well made Paul. It's sort of the definition of being an amateur, a weekend-warrior. It's part of the fun of it all - maximising the time we have, making the most of it and setting our targets in proportion. I see it as a positive thing.

paulM wrote:Hang on Broom Wagon - we've been here before.

We certainly have! Whistle the tune, I think I can remember the words...

I'm convinced the TLI *is* a good way to dip your toe into the world of racing - especially for a first timer, since you don't have to join any organisations up front, so you can enter on the line for around a tenner.

That said, Paul is right that TLI racing isn't the only option for people with limited time, and while I've enjoyed the TLIs alot, there are definite disadvantages to the format - in fact BW pointed one out in his post: on a flat simple course like Bishopwood, it's too easy for 'passengers' in the front groups just to sit in and act as scratch-bait. A hilly course (and our TLI doesn't use many) makes everyone work.

But BC isn't all rosy either. I've only raced 2 BC races since I got my license, both hilly, both with Paul in fact: one was a complete waste of a Sunday, the other, at Kippax, was one of my best races and I'll definitely be back (with more gels) next year.

For me, TLIs are handy because they're nearby, and it's easier for me (and my family) to give up a Tuesday night for racing than a Sunday morning. But if there were lots of midweek BC races around York, I'd be doing them. The more the merrier...

Follow up question: Who's up for the Clifton RR at the end of August?

Ok the reposte - TLI versus BC

Paul....humble 3rd CAT . I know you don't want to blow your own trumpet but you're hardly the average club cyclist. I've got to the age that I rather like things I know I can rely on like the sun coming up, grass being green and Muzzy being able to ride away from pretty much anyone I know. You've got ability so I can understand that TLI racing for you can be nothing more than a frustrating training session.

Here's the other side of it. Perhaps I'm more representitive of the ability of the average club rider than Paul, Kit or Alistair. I did a number of BC races or BCF as it was then, admittedly well over a decade ago (things might have changed) but this was my experience: pay thirty quid for a licence and 7 or 8 quid a race, get up at a stupid time Sunday morning and drive to the race, race, hang on as long as possible; usually two or three laps and then get shot out the back. Ride around a little on your own and then pack in. I did about 7 or 8 of those with more or less the same result.

Ok, you'd say I'm bitter because I just wasn't good enough. I wasn't good enough alright, but let's talk a bit about the sort of cyclist I was, late twenties (not early forties like now) one and a half stone lighter. No kids yet, so I rarely missed a club run. Ok a club run is very different to a road race, but club runs were hard in those days, it was keep up or goodbye, spend all day in the hills, attacks on every climb and then with all day of this in your legs with ten miles to go Karl Bentley would go to the front and ride at 28mph until he'd shed everyone off his wheel. Sort of a hard hundred mile ride with a chaingang on the end. Club runs rarely got back to York as a group. I could ride a 10 on a good day in a bit over 24mins. I was no Philip Graves, but this was on a standard road bike. If fact my winter commute bike is a faster bike than the one I used to TT on then. And still I wasn't good enough to do BCF races along with I think the majority of club cyclists. One race in particular, at Hampswaite demonstrated this. I should have known better really, it was a hilly ride and I was out the back before the end of the first lap of an eight lap 3rd and 4th race. I rode another lap and a half with another chap then packed. When I got back to the HQ more than half the field had packed even before me and was tucking into the cakes and sandwiches. BCF racing because of its hardness excluded me and the majority of other club cyclists from racing. At least that's how it was then, maybe it's different now. Racing for me was a waste of time and training for it wasn't nice. Why was I doing something I didn't have to, that I clearly wasn't enjoying. It wasn't the only reason (I also wanted a crack at some other sports) but because of those feelings engendered mainly by BCF racing I gave up cycling with no intention of ever doing any again.

I stayed away from cycling for about 5 years and when I came back to it I had no intention of racing, I would just do what I enjoyed; odd club run, Audax, cyclosportive and fit it in around the rest of the stuff life brings. And because of that I've enjoyed cycling more than I ever did before, I've had some absolutely great days on the bike.

This is where TLI comes in. I can cycle just for enjoyment, not worry about specific training or feel I must get out on the bike when I don't have the time and yet I can still take part in the race, heck if I had a bit of a sprint somewhere in me I'd have been chasing a place on Tuesday. And because I feel I'm actually taking part in these races (rather than just hanging in) they've provided exciting and exhilarating cycling.

I'm the first to admit BC racing may have changed a lot since I did any and TLI's are still full on road races, but for those lads fancying a crack at racing I would unashamedly recommend TLI to start with, bit slower, less hassle to do, nearer home, on evenings and not least because you'll have lots of club mates there with you and circumstances permitting I'll be one of them.

Paul - no sprint? You don't get the results you've had over the years without having a bit of a gallop in you somewhere. I hope to be out for a club run sometime this weekend but I don't whether it will be Saturday or Sunday.

My ha'pennyworth as a newb is that historical politics of NCU/BLRC/BC/TLI/LVRC have produced a legacy which modern day cyclists are left to deal with.

Also cycling doesn't have the depth of competition structure other sports do. Eg there are soccer leagues, squash leagues etc that range from elite level down to the 'frankly we're crap' level. In cycling - and I'm really thinking of road-racing here - the lowest rungs of the competition ladder are a long way up!

IMO riders like Dave C, Ian H, Phil B etc are reasonably dedicated and commited but - and I mean no offense - are unlikely to be truly competitive in a 3rd/4ths race. Maybe BC needs to extend the scale - down to 5th and 6th cats? In the current climate of 'cycling for all' this might be the way forward if culture and finances permit?

I probably ought to chuck in my two penn'uth as I've been doing TLI, LVRC and BC (3rds/4ths and 2nds/3rds/4ths) for the past few years.

Over that time I've had a couple of top-3's in LVRC races, and a few top-10's in the TLI's (almost always going off in the middle group). I focus much more on racing than many in the club (I don't mix in sportives, and I train to a plan) but I don't have the natural ability of Muzzy or a number of others - a year with a power meter has shown me where I stand in terms of physical abilities.

I can see both sides of the discussion. I agree with Broomwagon that the TLI's are accessible - you can start off in the first group with a moderate level of fitness and at least get a race in the bunch rather than getting immediately shelled out. For those at a higher level of fitness there's still the challenge of going off in the faster groups and sprinting against some fast riders - although the vagaries of handicapping and the politics of the scratch group can often make this frustrating, and I know Muzzy's had some wasted evenings as a result.

I also agree with Muzzy that BC races aren't necessarily out of reach for a lot of riders. I'm competitive generally in 3rds/4ths races (ie I'm not just hanging on in the bunch - I'm racing, not just riding round) and have had good rides in 2nds/3rds/4ths too. But on circuits that don't suit me I've had a few complete disasters - straight out the back in the first lap. Where I generally fall apart - and hence am still a 4th cat - is when it all gets elbow-to-elbow on the final lap; I don't have the nerve to lock handlebars with 17yo's or riders who have been doing it for twenty years. In that respect, Muzzy's right - I probably should do more higher level races where they're more open.

I'd also wave the flag for vets (LVRC) racing. The standard of riding is generally good, and while the standard's reasonably high (probably a bit quicker than 3rds/4ths) you can always ride in an older group to dip your toe in. Membership and entry fees are cheap. The only disadvantage is you have to be forty or more, but then I think most of the contributors to this thread have got that one cracked!

Hmmm... does that make any sense? I suppose I'm saying there are a number of ways into racing if you want to give it a go.

PhilBixby wrote:I don't have the natural ability of Muzzy

I feel I must reply here because I can almost hear Paul chewing at his keyboard in frustration. This putting riders on pedestals does no good at all. "It's all right for him/her, he's/she's got talent" is a cop out.

Let's put a few things straight. Paul is my hero (along with Kevin of course) and I've been riding with him for well over 20 years - training, clubruns, road races, time trials, team time trials, audax, sportif, touring, rough stuff, you name it.... Now while I've spent much of that 20 years staring at his rear mech or being half-wheeled, he won't mind me telling you that he has no particular genetic talent. But the example he sets is superb:

He rightly says he can only ride 3 times a week. But let me tell you, its 3 times a week every week. By hook or by crook, he'll find the time slots and he won't be put off by a trifling blizzard or such like.

Every ride counts. You won't hear him engaging in discussions about lactate threshold, but there's plenty of science behind what he does - worked out empirically - it's what works for him. Every ride is beneficial.

He targets what he enjoys (rather than what he's good at). And doesn't waste valuable riding time on the rest.

He's right that he can "sprint" from a small group on a hill top after a hard race, but this isn't fast twitch muscle fibres - it's sheer bloody mindedness - a characteristic that will get you a long way in cycling.

He doesn't need a HRM because he knows how hard he's working. Likewise a powertap.
He doesn't need GPS because he knows where he is.
He doesn't need a speedo because he knows how far it is between places and what time it is.

He understands that in a RR you sometimes have to "make" the race rather than follow it. And if it doesn't work, you'll come back stronger.

He has the mental fortitude to take a seasons' worth of disappointing results for the one or two great adventures that you can have in this sport.

Paul....humble 3rd CAT

That's exactly what he is Broomwagon, it says so on the tin. Or in this case the racing license. Humble thirdcatdom is the minimum of what you boy-racers should be aiming at. And to do it, there's a great example to follow, described above.

Blimey!

I think I'm getting a tear in my eye reading this.

It's got all the ingredients of a good Mills and Boon; heroes, villains, nostalgia, love, hate. If someone could add a bit of treachery and perhaps an illegitimate child I think we'll have a best seller.

Gripping

BroomWagon wrote: The riding in our group was a bit strange, one chap attacked at many opportunities, Dave and I would go with him and he'd want us to work with him to get away from the rest of the group which seemed odd, it was better to keep the group together, more helpers to hold off the faster groups, so naturally his attacks came to nothing. I'd end up on the front for long turns chugging on at 23-24mph (normally at that pace you'd expect people to come straight past you) until Dave had got his breath back and got us back to race pace. .

Whats wrong with you all? no wonder the Clifton points tally is lacking this year. Why ride around chasing down and nullifying attacks for ambitious riders having a go at making it a race. I rode the Scratch group all of last year and wondered why after 7 miles of the Walshford course we clawed back the 6 minute advantage the front group had over us. You should all treat these races as good hard training, if you was strong enough to go with this guy then why not work with him and leave the softpedallers behind, there would be no PASSENGERS then.

Regarding the BC races, anyone at club level could have a good go at these, a bit of preparation and the correct approach you can stay with the group and finish. Its all about being smart.

"PhilBixby wrote:
I don't have the natural ability of Muzzy or a number of others

....This putting riders on pedestals does no good at all. "It's all right for him/her, he's/she's got talent" is a cop out."

I think you've misinterpreted what I said Rob - I'd no intention of kicking off a "Cult of Muzzy" thread (top bloke tho he is) but was just noting that much as we should all HTFU, we all have varying levels of natural ability which means however much we do or don't thrash ourselves in training, we have varied levels at which we can have a crack at racing and stand a chance of competing. Hopefully there's nothing too contentious in that - that's why some people are pro's, some are Elites, some are 3rd cats.

Bloodymindedness is a great asset - it's got me through twenty years of running my own business in the construction industry despite various catastrophes but in cycling it'll only get me as far as my heart, lungs and legs will carry me, unless I'm missing something. The fun of training and racing is getting as close to that as possible, by whatever means we choose. Isn't it? And my post was saying do BC. Do LVRC. Do TLI. Do 'em all, and enjoy.

PhilBixby wrote:we all have varying levels of natural ability

I'm just not getting it across am I? One last try - control the controllable!