I'm all for making page7 also.
Please don't make me out to be some sort of talented pro looking down on you with indignity. I'm 40, have a wife (with whom I split cycling time 50/50), child & full time job. The reason I always post on here late is its the first and only chance I get. Last night I posted a bit earlier - and then went to Asda!
First to Phils point about training time - I have none aswell and the jurys still out on the talent bit? This week I went to circuit training with Cath on Tuesday, Went out for an hour tonight, will go out Sunday morning. Thats an average week and I've pretty much raced on that sort of time commitment all year. You can get away with it if you don't do any less.
Tom - Ideally I would train for road racing in a group. This year I haven't done any group training and except for a few Sundays and a few hard rides with Rob & have just been going out in my own misery bubble. I always rated our own Tuesday chaingang as a good workout and have done it religiously in previous years.
I've had a rubbish year as a result. Solo riding week in week out just doesn't work for me and turbo training is logistically not that easy.
I've been racing for about 20 years - I was a 3rd cat and rubbish for most of the first 10 of those with occasional decent rides. Its only in the last 10 or so that I started entering better races and doing ok. If I could do it all again I would have tried to be more ambitious in those early years when I was younger, had more time and perhaps the results would have followed?
My point is I don't think my training changed so much as my outlook.
Scientific training, in fact training in general is only 1 piece of the jigsaw.
As for next year - I hope to race although its the cost these days as much as the training time that puts me off! I've been relegated to third cat which is ok as it will give me more choice. However if I race I'll continue to race more higher cat races as much for the training as anything (why pay to ride a 40 miler when you can do 70 for the same price imo).
Arthur - no need to apologise - if I was worried about the flak I wouldn't be posting!
[Training thread - was Its getting cold]
Moderator: Moderators
Paul, makes good sense. Unfortunately we're all up against the same problem - time, or specifically for me, timetabling. I have a weekly pattern with some homeworking which gives me a lot of flexibility on Wednesday and Friday - but the chaingang is Tuesday and the spoco Thursday, and I'm rarely free before 7.30pm on either. I made 1 chaingang last year and thought it was a brilliant workout, not just for the hard work but because you aren't in control of the time+pace the way you are solo. This year I'm going to try to shuffle stuff around to get to a few more, but in fact TLI (also Tuesday) is easier for me because of the later start.Ideally I would train for road racing in a group. This year I haven't done any group training and except for a few Sundays and a few hard rides with Rob & have just been going out in my own misery bubble. I always rated our own Tuesday chaingang as a good workout and have done it religiously in previous years.
I've had a rubbish year as a result. Solo riding week in week out just doesn't work for me and turbo training is logistically not that easy.
Maybe we need to set up ad-hoc mini chains running later when the days lengthen out...
tom - page 7
£300 quid on ebay for my last powertap-
MichaelCarter
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 12:16 pm
"tom - page 7"
Tom... don't think in terms of the number of pages, it's much more exciting to break the record for number of posts. Will I think holds this record with his "new bike advice" posting with 102 and we're getting very close to that now! Personally I was gutted when my "intro to the world of racing" thread stalled at 99 posts, that was just cruel.
Michael
Tom... don't think in terms of the number of pages, it's much more exciting to break the record for number of posts. Will I think holds this record with his "new bike advice" posting with 102 and we're getting very close to that now! Personally I was gutted when my "intro to the world of racing" thread stalled at 99 posts, that was just cruel.
Michael
I'd be lying if I said no but TBH I couldn't face the sense of shame when Kevin found out and the 'Chequebook Charlie' references started flyingtomf wrote:You sound like the perfect candidate for Arthur's Power Cult. Have you considered the £1500 initiation rite?Dr Dave wrote:I find that when I get 'over-motivated' and push myself I just get fatigued and my performance declines. On the other hand if I want to improve then I need to push myself a bit more.....
Page 8 here we come..
Forums are wonderful in that you can have a conversation between four people and it's fine - if a reader's not interested, they can skip it, if they are, then great. Plus it's a chance to catch up with people you never meet on rides at the mo - Hi Muzzy!
I think one of the many interesting things this thread has shown is how different we are in what motivates us - both in racing and training. I've done a fair few races which were basically beyond me, and flogging round for three hours clinging on in the back group is one of the most dispiriting things I've done on two wheels. If you can mix it with Elites - and I've seen Muzzy do it - then great; enjoy. But I feel not one twinge of apology about my race plans for next year, which are based around entering stuff where - if I flog myself harder than I ever have this winter - I should be able to see a fair bit of the front of the race, hopefully all the way to the finish. I've never won a race; I've had a few placings, but I feel fine about racing people at the same kind of level as me if it means some hard work and suffering might mean I can have fun in races and maybe beat 'em. That's what motivates me - not coming in twenty minutes after one of the Downings.
I agree with Paul that science is only part of the jigsaw - if at all. We all train differently and only we know how successful our training is - it's not about results as there are so many other factors. I'm poles apart from Paul, probably; I really quite like training alone. Just back from 3hrs this morning, ride data put into my training plan, numbers just where I want them to be, job done, smile on face. Tested threshold power yesterday, 15W up from a month ago, training's working. That kinda stuff keeps me happy - I'm a self-confessed nerd! We're all different.
I'd take issue with Paul a bit on one point, though. Yes, Kit and Matt went straight into racing at a high level and succeeded - because they're both very strong, talented riders. An example though - we had a young lad join a couple of years back, he did some equally challenging race as his first ever, got dropped immediately after the neutralised start, not sure he raced again, and he certainly didn't renew his subs. There's a right way in for everyone who wants to have a go, but it's not always the same one, and I certainly don't think the only races worth doing are those where you're racing the top of the sport.
(I loved PaulC's mixed metaphors. I'll go for "standing on the shoulders of cats")
Forums are wonderful in that you can have a conversation between four people and it's fine - if a reader's not interested, they can skip it, if they are, then great. Plus it's a chance to catch up with people you never meet on rides at the mo - Hi Muzzy!
I think one of the many interesting things this thread has shown is how different we are in what motivates us - both in racing and training. I've done a fair few races which were basically beyond me, and flogging round for three hours clinging on in the back group is one of the most dispiriting things I've done on two wheels. If you can mix it with Elites - and I've seen Muzzy do it - then great; enjoy. But I feel not one twinge of apology about my race plans for next year, which are based around entering stuff where - if I flog myself harder than I ever have this winter - I should be able to see a fair bit of the front of the race, hopefully all the way to the finish. I've never won a race; I've had a few placings, but I feel fine about racing people at the same kind of level as me if it means some hard work and suffering might mean I can have fun in races and maybe beat 'em. That's what motivates me - not coming in twenty minutes after one of the Downings.
I agree with Paul that science is only part of the jigsaw - if at all. We all train differently and only we know how successful our training is - it's not about results as there are so many other factors. I'm poles apart from Paul, probably; I really quite like training alone. Just back from 3hrs this morning, ride data put into my training plan, numbers just where I want them to be, job done, smile on face. Tested threshold power yesterday, 15W up from a month ago, training's working. That kinda stuff keeps me happy - I'm a self-confessed nerd! We're all different.
I'd take issue with Paul a bit on one point, though. Yes, Kit and Matt went straight into racing at a high level and succeeded - because they're both very strong, talented riders. An example though - we had a young lad join a couple of years back, he did some equally challenging race as his first ever, got dropped immediately after the neutralised start, not sure he raced again, and he certainly didn't renew his subs. There's a right way in for everyone who wants to have a go, but it's not always the same one, and I certainly don't think the only races worth doing are those where you're racing the top of the sport.
(I loved PaulC's mixed metaphors. I'll go for "standing on the shoulders of cats")
Caught behind, one run short of his century! That hurts... but pages are much more mysterious (when does phpbb break a page anyway?)MichaelCarter wrote:Tom... don't think in terms of the number of pages, it's much more exciting to break the record for number of posts. ... Personally I was gutted when my "intro to the world of racing" thread stalled at 99
Paul, I think I'm getting my head round this 'tough races as training' thing. A target for me next year is to get a top three place in a TLI. Maybe unrealistic, but something to aim for. I had a plan to achieve it as well, but training on my own - doing some hard intervals (which I didn't stick at long enough last year) and working on my sprinting, because it seems to me you've got to be able to cover the breaks AND then sprint hard at the end to get near the front.
I think what you're saying is: do more racing instead/as well. Use a harder BCF race as training for the races you *can* win; if you can survive a cat1/2/3 (not sure how this ranking system works to be honest, but you know what I mean) without getting spat out, then the TLI will seem - 'comfortable', and what you learn in unwinnable races will set you up for the winnable onee.
It sounds good - but if you pitch it too high, won't you just get dropped on lap 1? And that's not great training. So how do you judge it? For example, I found the Milby TLI last year very tough in group 2 and had to sprint full out twice just to get back on, although I kept with them to the end. And a specific question: Seacroft Wheelers seem to have a race at Bishopwood, just down the road, in March. Is that worth a trip? And worth entering the Elite event? Advice welcome.
(I could have PM'd this but (a) I'm an exhibitionist and (b) I reckon other people would be interested too..)
I think what you're saying is: do more racing instead/as well. Use a harder BCF race as training for the races you *can* win; if you can survive a cat1/2/3 (not sure how this ranking system works to be honest, but you know what I mean) without getting spat out, then the TLI will seem - 'comfortable', and what you learn in unwinnable races will set you up for the winnable onee.
It sounds good - but if you pitch it too high, won't you just get dropped on lap 1? And that's not great training. So how do you judge it? For example, I found the Milby TLI last year very tough in group 2 and had to sprint full out twice just to get back on, although I kept with them to the end. And a specific question: Seacroft Wheelers seem to have a race at Bishopwood, just down the road, in March. Is that worth a trip? And worth entering the Elite event? Advice welcome.
(I could have PM'd this but (a) I'm an exhibitionist and (b) I reckon other people would be interested too..)
[quote][i]I've never won a race; I've had a few placings, but I feel fine about racing people at the same kind of level as me if it means some hard work and suffering might mean I can have fun in races and maybe beat 'em. That's what motivates me - not coming in twenty minutes after one of the Downings.[/i][/quote]
I've had a few wins. I cannot deny it is just about the best thing at any level. But my open event wins were all 3rd cat events & years ago and I wouldn't even put them amongst my best rides now. In fact I don't think my best rides were even top 10 finishes?
Thinking back, Phil, the last time me & you road raced together (apart from that Aussie pursuit last March we'd both rather forget) was that 2/3 cat race we trailed out to at Braithwell in 2007. Now I wasn't having a bad year and you've said since you didn't think you raced so well in 2007. But that day you were never out of the first 15 in the buch, were stronger than me and finished well up in the bunch sprint.
Coincidently I'd had a bunch finish in an Elite race on the same circuit a couple of weeks before that. It wasn't really any harder - its just that the pace just doesn't drop. Russ Downing won that. It wasn't by 20 mins but it probably wasn't far off?
[quote]. There's a right way in for everyone who wants to have a go, but it's not always the same one, and I certainly don't think the only races worth doing are those where you're racing the top of the sport.
[/quote]
Couldn't agree more Phil and as I said previously I will be revisiting a few 3rd cat events if I race next year (I'll enter Wetwang next to week to ensure I get a ride!) and probably a few vets races aswell. But I'd want to do that along with some higher cat races. Are you not concerned that concentrating on vets over 50's would mean riding a lot of very similar events with the same guys every time? My point is you've already crossed the great divide once and done ok. I know you've had other disappointments along the way in BC events but remember I was dropped on Bulmer on the 1st lap in our event this year. No one achieves success at this game without loads of pain and disappointment first. Its a hard sport at any level and there are 60 or so other guys who think they are better than you.
I've had a few wins. I cannot deny it is just about the best thing at any level. But my open event wins were all 3rd cat events & years ago and I wouldn't even put them amongst my best rides now. In fact I don't think my best rides were even top 10 finishes?
Thinking back, Phil, the last time me & you road raced together (apart from that Aussie pursuit last March we'd both rather forget) was that 2/3 cat race we trailed out to at Braithwell in 2007. Now I wasn't having a bad year and you've said since you didn't think you raced so well in 2007. But that day you were never out of the first 15 in the buch, were stronger than me and finished well up in the bunch sprint.
Coincidently I'd had a bunch finish in an Elite race on the same circuit a couple of weeks before that. It wasn't really any harder - its just that the pace just doesn't drop. Russ Downing won that. It wasn't by 20 mins but it probably wasn't far off?
[quote]. There's a right way in for everyone who wants to have a go, but it's not always the same one, and I certainly don't think the only races worth doing are those where you're racing the top of the sport.
[/quote]
Couldn't agree more Phil and as I said previously I will be revisiting a few 3rd cat events if I race next year (I'll enter Wetwang next to week to ensure I get a ride!) and probably a few vets races aswell. But I'd want to do that along with some higher cat races. Are you not concerned that concentrating on vets over 50's would mean riding a lot of very similar events with the same guys every time? My point is you've already crossed the great divide once and done ok. I know you've had other disappointments along the way in BC events but remember I was dropped on Bulmer on the 1st lap in our event this year. No one achieves success at this game without loads of pain and disappointment first. Its a hard sport at any level and there are 60 or so other guys who think they are better than you.
Ahh... ...Wetwang. My first ever BCF race (dropped on first lap, but then so were a lot of people, so it was far from lonely). I remember that 2/3/4 at Braithwell too; it was great fun - but largely because I was able to stick near the front. I'd still need some convincing that I could do the same in an Elites race, mind you.
Point taken about vets races, but there are enough of them out there that you're certainly not seeing all the same faces all the time, circuits are varied (admittedly you don't get the Bulmer-Terringtons, but hey, I can live without that), races are often longer than 3rd/4th BCF ones, and the standard of riding is usually safer - which is kinda nice, when you're self-employed and need to be able to work on the Monday after the Sunday.
I'll almost certainly keep my BC membership going next year, and will do some 2/3/4 events, and might finally shake off being a 4th cat. But to return to your original post, no, I won't be "frantically posting off entries for Elite road races". That doesn't take away my reason for training harder than ever this winter though - I want to be strong enough to enjoy every race I do, I want to hammer some old blokes of my age, and I want to hit the targets I've set myself in training too - because they're the things that motivate me.
Like I say, we're all different. Here's to a good winter's training leading to a year of success for us all - whatever success means to each one of us.
Point taken about vets races, but there are enough of them out there that you're certainly not seeing all the same faces all the time, circuits are varied (admittedly you don't get the Bulmer-Terringtons, but hey, I can live without that), races are often longer than 3rd/4th BCF ones, and the standard of riding is usually safer - which is kinda nice, when you're self-employed and need to be able to work on the Monday after the Sunday.
I'll almost certainly keep my BC membership going next year, and will do some 2/3/4 events, and might finally shake off being a 4th cat. But to return to your original post, no, I won't be "frantically posting off entries for Elite road races". That doesn't take away my reason for training harder than ever this winter though - I want to be strong enough to enjoy every race I do, I want to hammer some old blokes of my age, and I want to hit the targets I've set myself in training too - because they're the things that motivate me.
Like I say, we're all different. Here's to a good winter's training leading to a year of success for us all - whatever success means to each one of us.
PhilBixby wrote: might finally shake off being a 4th cat.
Can't help feeling Phil that, given your ability, your experience and your commitment (in time, effort and money) you should be aiming higher than this. I don't mean ride 123 races as described above; if you are going to ride the "Chippers" then you shouldn't be satisfied with simply "seeing the front".I should be able to see a fair bit of the front of the race, hopefully all the way to the finish.
Mayby you are in private and are just being modest in public.......?
R
My flat mates think I am stupid for training, I do around 18-37 miles a day (2x 18mile loop), with one rest day, if I don't manage to get a rest day it's just an 18 miler, I said to them I don't plan to deffenitly 100% do any races, then they say, so whats point of cycling as much as I do. :\
Then I go out at 11PM-12am and sometimes out on the bike untill 1 in the morning as it is quieter and less windy then and they are like... will you weirdo, I mean whats that all about O-o, I nearly get ran over in the day so it seems the most logical choice to train at night.
Then I go out at 11PM-12am and sometimes out on the bike untill 1 in the morning as it is quieter and less windy then and they are like... will you weirdo, I mean whats that all about O-o, I nearly get ran over in the day so it seems the most logical choice to train at night.
Rob:- To clarify - "seeing a fair bit of the front of the race" means being front of the bunch or in the break, every race, including bunch sprint if required, and getting placings - in every race I decide to take seriously. The non-priority ones I'll just aim to enjoy, but in general I'm not planning on taking it easy. It may seem a strange thing to say, but I came into the sport relatively recently, age 45, and lined up in my first road races against blokes who were, in general, twenty years younger and a lot leaner-looking. It can take a while to build up confidence. You might feel five years is a bit too long (and I probably wouldn't disagree) but as I've said - we're all different!
A word in defence of vets races though - some of them are b****y hard. A lot of them are around 2/3/4th cat level, and some - the Percy Stallard series races and the Tom Simpson Memorial for example - attract huge fields and are quick.
Will:- all of us reading this are considered weirdos by much of society, along with people who dress differently, do voluntary work, or hand wallets in to the police if they find 'em. If you enjoy riding, and feel good being fit, then why worry?
A word in defence of vets races though - some of them are b****y hard. A lot of them are around 2/3/4th cat level, and some - the Percy Stallard series races and the Tom Simpson Memorial for example - attract huge fields and are quick.
Will:- all of us reading this are considered weirdos by much of society, along with people who dress differently, do voluntary work, or hand wallets in to the police if they find 'em. If you enjoy riding, and feel good being fit, then why worry?