Clifton CC

[quote="AndrewM"]At least the TdF are actively going after the dopers.

How often, in comparison, do you see people testing positive in the Giro or the Vuelta?

quote]

Try telling that to the late Marco Pantani.....

nickb: Valverde was linked to Fuentes. Nothing was ever proved as the Spanish authorities didn't really purse their riders. Make of that what you will.

Dr Dave wrote:

AndrewM wrote:At least the TdF are actively going after the dopers.

How often, in comparison, do you see people testing positive in the Giro or the Vuelta?

quote]

Try telling that to the late Marco Pantani.....

Indeed, but that was 1 case - how many since the infamous day at Madonna di Campiglio?

And then compare that to the Tour - they are a lot more stringent.

Arthur M wrote:

Rob wrote:can you explain why its not the other way around -- With the extra power doping gives riders (the escapees), it appears the peloton is having trouble chasing this season!

I think of it this way: A rider using drugs could, for example, gain 30% more power riding on their own than without drugs. ... the larger the group, the more benefit can be gained from each individual doper. Hence the breaks succeed more as the racing cleans up.

Hmm... still not convinced. I don't see why the effect of doping is amplified by having non-dopers around. In a large peloton chase with a couple of doped supermen, their turns at the front may be quicker, but that's a small proportion of the time, and the other riders taking turns are no more rested than they would be if they had been following undoped riders. So the effect of the dopers is diluted. Whereas a few dopers in a breakwaway group ought to make more difference.

Arthur wrote:nickb: Valverde was linked to Fuentes. Nothing was ever proved as the Spanish authorities didn't really purse their riders. Make of that what you will.

oh, silly me. That must mean he's doped upto the eyeballs then.
No doubt that piece of information came from cycling weekly.

Neither Arthur or I are suggesting it's as simple as that. However, where the national sporting bodies *did* follow up the available evidence - as with Ullrich, Basso etc - heads rolled. With Valverde, no action was taken and he's simply repeated the assertion that he's got nothing to hide - "I am tranquil". You can see why there's scepticism.

Operacion Puerto was given *very* extensive coverage on the net including www.cyclingnews.com's usually pretty un-sensationalist approach. I only ever buy Cycling Weakly when I'm in the results section - so that dates my last copy....

Whereas a few dopers in a breakwaway group ought to make more difference.

Agreed. That was my reading of the situation when bunch could not catch breakway the other night. And i think a broad hint was dropped by one of the sprinters when interviewed at end?

The person i feel sorry for is David Millar. It would have been good to see a rider you can believe in wearing yellow. Not saying current yellow is guilty as nothing proved. But I rate Millar as a real class act and think he deserves some recognition.

MarkA wrote:
The person i feel sorry for is David Millar.

What??!! If anyone should be banned from the tour it's him! Why on earth would you stick up for someone who HAS doped and slag off riders you *suspect* are doing naughty stuff??

"What??!! If anyone should be banned from the tour it's him! Why on earth would you stick up for someone who HAS doped and slag off riders you *suspect* are doing naughty stuff??"

With you again on this one Nick!!

thanks Michael!

MarkA wrote:

Whereas a few dopers in a breakwaway group ought to make more difference.

Agreed. That was my reading of the situation when bunch could not catch breakway the other night. And i think a broad hint was dropped by one of the sprinters when interviewed at end?

The person i feel sorry for is David Millar. It would have been good to see a rider you can believe in wearing yellow. Not saying current yellow is guilty as nothing proved. But I rate Millar as a real class act and think he deserves some recognition.

Apologies, but Millar comes across now as a right sanctimonious pr*ck.

David Millar?

What a prat, you cant dope and get banned for it then come back to the sport and become involved with WADA and then slag off other riders who have been found guilty of doping in the last year. DOUBLE STANDARDS ?

I think everyone needs to stop living in the past, theres doping in all sports its just kept hush hush.

Also take for example football, do they play 21 games in 23 days each May, July and September.

Top Marathon runners limited themselves to 2/3 marathons a year.

Rugby World Cup, 5 to 7 days between games to recover.

Point Im making is that all the organisers of these races make then incredibly hard to create a spectacle for the spectators, who suffers? the riders. Add to this commercial prssures from sponsors etc its not difficult to imagine why they give in to temptation.

Slower average speeds should also show that the riders are not charged up on god knows what anymore.

Valverde, anyone who follows the races should know Valverde has always been unbeatable in an uphill sprint, weakness time trials? so was Kirchen doping yesterday and Valverde clean?

nickb wrote:

MarkA wrote:
The person i feel sorry for is David Millar.

What??!! If anyone should be banned from the tour it's him! Why on earth would you stick up for someone who HAS doped and slag off riders you *suspect* are doing naughty stuff??

One reason why: if you want a clean sport, you need (among other things) to provide incentives for people who are doping to come clean. And that means offering some degree of rehabilition to those who 'fess up when caught, whick (afaik) is what DM has done.

This is very much 'one cheer' for Millar. I don't know him, he may be well be an irritating little s*t, but while I prefer someone clean to a cheat, I prefer a cheat who admits what they've done and tries to make some amends, to one who insists to their (in some cases literally) dying breath that their Gatorade was spiked by a jealous rival.

That said, I don't feel sorry for him - he seems to be doing alright for himself.

The BBC on its website wrote:The French trio of Lilian Jegou, Florent Brard and national champion Nicolas Vogondy opened up a gap of more than eight minutes, which was slowly whittled away by the chasing peloton.

Vogondy broke away from his compatriots in the final 1.5km, only to be overhauled by the sprinters around 30 metres from the line.

30m. That must have really hurt.

So these breaks can still get caught...

Andy J wrote:so was Kirchen doping yesterday

I do not believe so. He is on form at the moment, came close to winning Tour of Switzerland, final day in mountains blew it. I do not see it as hugely unusual, I think that Kirchen is a major stage and classics racer in the making. Came 7th in the tour last year, would have won a stage if you dicount Vino's wins. I think he could win the Tour in the future.

Not that I know if he is definately not doping, its just that I do not suspect it. Its not like he has had one amazing day surrounded by mediocre days eg. Vino last year, instead he has had a run of good form, so his tour so far is not suspicious.