I'm definitely in the "we have every right to be here" camp when it comes to using the roads, but as a rule I won't race on roads I wouldn't ride on for training/pleasure.
At what point does an organiser say " hang on I'm sending a wobbly old bloke down a busy dual carriageway in a storm of biblical proportions..this might be a bit silly!
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I feel sorry for the organizer of the national 25 not least of all because i am sure must feel awful about rider being knocked off.
From regs point of view I believe even the starting timekeeper can "officially" call "times up" on an event.
But a very difficult position not helped by changing conditions on the day.
Probably not helpful to comment any further as would just be speculating.
There are real issues for CTT to address though coming out of all this wrt National events, choice of course, time of day, publicity, handling contingencies, disasters etc.
Anyway, the reason I am "exercised" about this is because I do not believe the issue is the individual "event" it is about riding time trials on non sporting courses.
Imo the National 25 just triggered the discussion.
Re-read the discussion again Rob and think about it from another persons perspective.
Why did no one chip in with well done to Greg on stepping up and doing a good ride? This was a National event. How often does that happen?
Why was the immediate response series of posts about riding tts on non sporting courses?
How does that make Clifton members feel who enjoy riding tts across full range of course types?
I think i described it before as feeling like villains or having done something wrong.
We, the Clifton, need to make a decision. Which is why i am asking for opinion from committee.
If someone like Greg, full of beans having ridden National 25, can't post without opening up debate on riding non sporting courses there is something wrong.
Either riding non sporting courses is incompatible with Clifton membership. And we respectfully request those riders desist or leave.
Or those with a strong opinion on the issue learn to hold back occasionally and show some respect to fellow members.
There is a time and place for everything.
At the moment the time for lambasting the CTT and riding on non sporting courses is every time it is mentioned.
From regs point of view I believe even the starting timekeeper can "officially" call "times up" on an event.
But a very difficult position not helped by changing conditions on the day.
Probably not helpful to comment any further as would just be speculating.
There are real issues for CTT to address though coming out of all this wrt National events, choice of course, time of day, publicity, handling contingencies, disasters etc.
Anyway, the reason I am "exercised" about this is because I do not believe the issue is the individual "event" it is about riding time trials on non sporting courses.
Imo the National 25 just triggered the discussion.
Re-read the discussion again Rob and think about it from another persons perspective.
Why did no one chip in with well done to Greg on stepping up and doing a good ride? This was a National event. How often does that happen?
Why was the immediate response series of posts about riding tts on non sporting courses?
How does that make Clifton members feel who enjoy riding tts across full range of course types?
I think i described it before as feeling like villains or having done something wrong.
We, the Clifton, need to make a decision. Which is why i am asking for opinion from committee.
If someone like Greg, full of beans having ridden National 25, can't post without opening up debate on riding non sporting courses there is something wrong.
Either riding non sporting courses is incompatible with Clifton membership. And we respectfully request those riders desist or leave.
Or those with a strong opinion on the issue learn to hold back occasionally and show some respect to fellow members.
There is a time and place for everything.
At the moment the time for lambasting the CTT and riding on non sporting courses is every time it is mentioned.
Not meaning to weigh in against anyone but I never took any of the postings to specifically censure Greg or criticise individuals but rather to comment more generally on the risks of TTs on drag strips with cars brushing past your R shoulder at 70+ mph. Maybe the thread has gone off on a slight tangent but for the avoidance of doubt 'chapeau' to Greg for his ride.
The evidence is that every year a few TTs are killed on drag-strip courses by cars whose driver are usually ordinary folk whose attention wanders for a critical few seconds - that's all it takes. Or perhaps the bike undergoes a slight deviation from the straight line whilst on aerobars - easy enough to do. Who amongst us - when driving - is 100% alert 100% of the time. Not me (I'm less than perfect I'm afraid) and I suspect not anyone.
Of course all riding has inherent risks but the speeds involved and the close proximity to such fast moving traffic means that the consequences of an accident in these events are invariably serious.
I'm surprised that the same road closure/risk assessments that road races have to satisfy don't seem to apply to TTs.
On balance I have to agree with the 'bonkers' assessment I'm afraid but equally, I defend the rights of those of us who choose to ride these events to do so. Mark, I'm not sure why you feel the club should make a ruling and come over all 'big brother' over the choices made by individual members - it is the nature of the event that has been criticised, not Greg or any specific rider. I feel you are putting up a strawman argument here?
The evidence is that every year a few TTs are killed on drag-strip courses by cars whose driver are usually ordinary folk whose attention wanders for a critical few seconds - that's all it takes. Or perhaps the bike undergoes a slight deviation from the straight line whilst on aerobars - easy enough to do. Who amongst us - when driving - is 100% alert 100% of the time. Not me (I'm less than perfect I'm afraid) and I suspect not anyone.
Of course all riding has inherent risks but the speeds involved and the close proximity to such fast moving traffic means that the consequences of an accident in these events are invariably serious.
I'm surprised that the same road closure/risk assessments that road races have to satisfy don't seem to apply to TTs.
On balance I have to agree with the 'bonkers' assessment I'm afraid but equally, I defend the rights of those of us who choose to ride these events to do so. Mark, I'm not sure why you feel the club should make a ruling and come over all 'big brother' over the choices made by individual members - it is the nature of the event that has been criticised, not Greg or any specific rider. I feel you are putting up a strawman argument here?
Last edited by Dr Dave on Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think the place for debate on safety of sporting vs non sporting courses is a different thread
Let alone public perception of cyclists or appropriate / safe behaviour wrt third parties
All i am asking for is some respect for those individuals who take part in one aspect of our great sport without, every time it is mentioned, being made to feel like they are doing something wrong or treated to a lecture.
If this is not possible then i think the committee should perform its role and decide whether riding non sporting courses is compatible with membership of the Clifton. And if it is ensure "space" for people to engage with respect from all.
Let alone public perception of cyclists or appropriate / safe behaviour wrt third parties
All i am asking for is some respect for those individuals who take part in one aspect of our great sport without, every time it is mentioned, being made to feel like they are doing something wrong or treated to a lecture.
If this is not possible then i think the committee should perform its role and decide whether riding non sporting courses is compatible with membership of the Clifton. And if it is ensure "space" for people to engage with respect from all.
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Cyan Skymoos
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:46 pm
Start with this one
http://discussion.cliftoncc.org/viewtopic.php?t=589
Nige chips in with enthusiastic post on riding new course. Gets put down with one liner.
Correct me if i am wrong but i think Nige was riding in Clifton colours that year?
http://discussion.cliftoncc.org/viewtopic.php?t=589
Nige chips in with enthusiastic post on riding new course. Gets put down with one liner.
Correct me if i am wrong but i think Nige was riding in Clifton colours that year?
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Cyan Skymoos
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:46 pm
I think it's excellent that Clifton is as "broad church" as it is in terms of the membership. As a club we're clear about what we organise, and what we take part in as a club (eg involvement in local event series etc). Members are free to do what they like, whether it's unicycling over the Grand Canyon or doing the Naked Bike Ride. Other members will give their views on here - it's the club discussion board, not a committee meeting (thankfully). Well done Greg for the quick time, and well done Jess for responding to seeing the route by deciding not to ride it in those conditions. As just one of the committee, that's all I personally want to say on it. 
Wow. 
Can I just point out that I did say congrats to Greg & very impressed that he got under the hour? Not sure why he would be defensive?
The decision to withdraw was mine to make - I have no hidden agenda in raising it - I am a relative newcomer to TT and this was my first national event. I am just genuinely surprised that these courses are run on roads like this. It's not really the volume of traffic, tbh -= I could easy get knocked off in York - it is more the proximity and speed & the fact that there were no warning signs for motorists.
I rode the Yorkshire championship 10, 3 weeks ago, on the old A1. this was a fast course, but the road was single carriageway, wide & in my opinion much safer as a consequence.
Anyway - I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest so I'll leave it at that. I fully intend to ride National championships again, (or non SPOCOs or whatever) but only if I deem them to be on safe courses.
It's a race. Not worth risking life for. that is all.
Can I just point out that I did say congrats to Greg & very impressed that he got under the hour? Not sure why he would be defensive?
The decision to withdraw was mine to make - I have no hidden agenda in raising it - I am a relative newcomer to TT and this was my first national event. I am just genuinely surprised that these courses are run on roads like this. It's not really the volume of traffic, tbh -= I could easy get knocked off in York - it is more the proximity and speed & the fact that there were no warning signs for motorists.
I rode the Yorkshire championship 10, 3 weeks ago, on the old A1. this was a fast course, but the road was single carriageway, wide & in my opinion much safer as a consequence.
Anyway - I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest so I'll leave it at that. I fully intend to ride National championships again, (or non SPOCOs or whatever) but only if I deem them to be on safe courses.
It's a race. Not worth risking life for. that is all.
Darren - didn't expect you to know about thread - it just stuck in my mind because shortly after i started riding again. In fact there probably aren't many more. And probably bit unfair to Rob.
Jess - you haven't done anything wrong. This is an issue which predates my time and has already led to several people leaving.
Please consider it end of thread from my point of view.
I think it needs official statement to avoid festering any longer so will be in hands of committee.
Tonight back to racing on pothole strewn roads
with gravelly turns from minor to B roads at junctions with poor visibility and
carriageways not wide enough for two cars and a bike past umpteen stables ...
Hopefully we can add rain to the mix
Looking forward to it
I have my entry for the open event Steve if out tonight.
Jess - you haven't done anything wrong. This is an issue which predates my time and has already led to several people leaving.
Please consider it end of thread from my point of view.
I think it needs official statement to avoid festering any longer so will be in hands of committee.
Tonight back to racing on pothole strewn roads
with gravelly turns from minor to B roads at junctions with poor visibility and
carriageways not wide enough for two cars and a bike past umpteen stables ...
Hopefully we can add rain to the mix
Looking forward to it
I have my entry for the open event Steve if out tonight.
Interesting thread but not a new argument.
I'm not going to add to the debate other than to say I don't feel it's the role of the Committee to restrict what riding members choose to do, with or without a Club jersey on, so long as it doesn't bring the Club into disrepute. I think the Committee, which should just be a cross-section of membership after all, can discuss and decide what events we lay on and put into the various 'series' and these will naturally steer members in a particular direction. (You'll notice the TT Series are all Spocos.) However, if riders want to tackle another type of event, be that downhill MTBing, naked bike rides or drag strip TTs, that should be their decision alone.
I think it would be a sad day when membership of the Club restricts what you can do on a bike... and not something I'd be party to.
I'm not going to add to the debate other than to say I don't feel it's the role of the Committee to restrict what riding members choose to do, with or without a Club jersey on, so long as it doesn't bring the Club into disrepute. I think the Committee, which should just be a cross-section of membership after all, can discuss and decide what events we lay on and put into the various 'series' and these will naturally steer members in a particular direction. (You'll notice the TT Series are all Spocos.) However, if riders want to tackle another type of event, be that downhill MTBing, naked bike rides or drag strip TTs, that should be their decision alone.
I think it would be a sad day when membership of the Club restricts what you can do on a bike... and not something I'd be party to.
I think the issue I have is that whilst these conditions can - and do - lead to crashes/falls they cause fatalities extremely rarely - unlike drag-strip TT accidents.MarkA wrote:
Tonight back to racing on pothole strewn roads
with gravelly turns from minor to B roads at junctions with poor visibility and
carriageways not wide enough for two cars and a bike past umpteen stables ...
Hopefully we can add rain to the mix
I know i declared thread closed from my point of view
But i also said i thought debate on relative safety of spoco vs non sporting courses was for another thread and cannot let Daves comment lie
If we forget we are all only one idiot away from an accident when out on the road we are in trouble.
In the case of sporting courses this could mean someone trying to overtake where there is only just enough room, or on a bend, and you getting side swiped into the verge.
Or it could mean you encountering this idiot coming the other way and a head on collision.
Or someone trying to overtake you who cannot see car coming towards them because the hedges are in full bloom - then what happens?
Thankfully we had a miracle with the rider knocked off on Saturday.
But you cannot predict outcome of accidents involving cars. A ton+ of metal at speed is a lethal weapon. End of story. Even the most "innocuous" of incidents involving a car = potential fatality.
In the case of coming off the bike due to potholes, standing water, gravel on bends please think about it. iirc we had an incident on the first bend at Open event where someone came off? Thankfully it was from B road to minor road and not other way around. But what if a car had been coming and unable to stop?
Last thought on this; if you ride like an idiot (another thread from the past) then it does increase the likelihood of an accident no matter where you are.
http://discussion.cliftoncc.org/viewtopic.php?t=3738
Think about it when turning out onto B road at Brandsby, going over narrow bridge before Stillington and through chicane and over narrow bridge on way out of Stillington tonight. Also consider horses - there are quite few stables on run across to Brandsby.
Having said all that safe ride to all and have fun[/url]
But i also said i thought debate on relative safety of spoco vs non sporting courses was for another thread and cannot let Daves comment lie
If we forget we are all only one idiot away from an accident when out on the road we are in trouble.
In the case of sporting courses this could mean someone trying to overtake where there is only just enough room, or on a bend, and you getting side swiped into the verge.
Or it could mean you encountering this idiot coming the other way and a head on collision.
Or someone trying to overtake you who cannot see car coming towards them because the hedges are in full bloom - then what happens?
Thankfully we had a miracle with the rider knocked off on Saturday.
But you cannot predict outcome of accidents involving cars. A ton+ of metal at speed is a lethal weapon. End of story. Even the most "innocuous" of incidents involving a car = potential fatality.
In the case of coming off the bike due to potholes, standing water, gravel on bends please think about it. iirc we had an incident on the first bend at Open event where someone came off? Thankfully it was from B road to minor road and not other way around. But what if a car had been coming and unable to stop?
Last thought on this; if you ride like an idiot (another thread from the past) then it does increase the likelihood of an accident no matter where you are.
http://discussion.cliftoncc.org/viewtopic.php?t=3738
Think about it when turning out onto B road at Brandsby, going over narrow bridge before Stillington and through chicane and over narrow bridge on way out of Stillington tonight. Also consider horses - there are quite few stables on run across to Brandsby.
Having said all that safe ride to all and have fun
[/url]Actually you can predict - based on actual statistics - both the likelihood of a crash/fall/incident and the severity of any consequences. Granted I don't have the figures to hand but I suspect that in formal racing events - which is what we are discussing - that drag-strip TT riding carries a much higher risk of serious injury/death than SPOCO TTing or road racing.MarkA wrote: But you cannot predict outcome of accidents involving cars. A ton+ of metal at speed is a lethal weapon. End of story. Even the most "innocuous" of incidents involving a car = potential fatality.
Anyway, we're lucky that we live in a relatively free society and have the liberty to make personal decisions about events we enter so it's all good really. AND we get to have friendly debates in a good humoured way about these things