Clifton CC

willhub wrote:I know what the answer is, I'm just trying to find excuses to cycle cause I'm bored out of my brains here its crap.

If you're a first year student at Manchester University and are already bored out of your brain, I suspect you are doing something seriously wrong!

You should be having a ball.

Not uni,college. It's not all that boring really, it's ok, I was just bored when I posted that.

Anyway I've got another question about my knee, not trying to sound like a hypochondriac but I don't want to mash it up.

I've not been down or up some stairs for nearly 2 weeks now so haven't noticed this until today, going up the stairs is fine, but going down I can feel in my right leg, to the left of the knee, maybe slightly down too, like a click or something, if I put my hand on my knee it is more noticeable, now I know clicks are normal in some places, my wrists, knuckles, ankles, back, neck, jaw etc... frequently clicks with a noticed and easily audible click, but the knee I don't know?

After 2 weeks off, well hardly doing any cycling I cycled home today (64 miles, minimal headwind, if any), took it steady, on the flats was not much speed difference than normal but on the hills I was out of the saddle and maintaining a steady rhythm, seemed to work, I got my CAAD9 soaked for the first time in the torrential downpour, my knees where fine for the most part, they felt perfectly fine apart from going up hills sat down, but I think that's my seat height, just felt sluggish sitting in the seat, so my knees are almost fine now, I never noticed this clicking. I don't know what to think of it? Maybe I'm being paranoid but that's the only thing keeping me off my bike for the next 5 or so days now. as any pain or anything has gone as I have gave it allot of rest I think

"Cycle heaven done good, got me a new frame in, my Genesis was indeed cracked"

Good to hear, Will. Nice to know how that particular saga ended

Hello,
After my Easter holiday and seeing the forum, I thought “Blimey, we’re getting a bit of a shoeing from all angles here!” This has gone on for months, so we think it’s high time we had our say…

I’d just like to remind a few club posters of the things Cycle Heaven has done to get Will on the road and keep him on the road, so far. Before we get into the history I would like to note that it is clear that Will is very hard on his bike – he is a powerful rider, who puts in a high mileage and rides his bikes hard – this last is clear just watching him pounding away from the shop from a standing start!

So, from the beginning...
When Will first came in to the shop with an obviously under-sized bike bought elsewhere, Rich spent a long time talking to him about the options available. We thought that the Genesis Aether at £699.99 was a great choice for someone starting off with club riding and with his tight budget. In fact, in terms of spec, there was no better bike around – it even came complete with Shimano SPD-SL pedals. When he started a discussion on the forum about us selling him the wrong sized bike, we invited him back to the shop. It turned out also that someone in the club had told him that he needed a longer stem. I personally spent several hours with him (on my day off), doing a bike fit (free of charge) and taking him through the results. The frame size was confirmed as spot on and a stem swap was made (free of charge) based on the findings. Interestingly this was a 10mm shorter stem, not a longer one, as suggested by his mates.

A few weeks later, he brought the bike in with a broken spoke on the rear Shimano RS10 wheel. We don’t usually keep spokes for this wheelset because this was the only bike that we stock with this relatively low end wheel set. Unfortunately Madison were out of stock too, so we took the decision to replace the RS10 wheelset with a pair of Tiagra hubs laced with Open Pro rims hand built by Ash, our senior mechanic. This is a pretty bomb-proof yet light set of wheels which would normally have cost about £150. Note we had no control over the Madison stock, but here we actively tried to sort him out as quickly as possible. I think we exchanged them with his used RS10 set for about £20 if I remember rightly. After repairing and re-selling his used wheelset, Cycle Heaven made a net loss. He has since replaced his new ones with some Mavic Aksiums, bought elsewhere, as is his right.

During the winter, after a particularly icy spell, Will came in with a crash-damaged shifter, wanting us to warranty it – a bit naughty, given the circumstances. However, to keep him on the road and understanding him to be pretty hard up, we made a warranty claim. Amazingly (and fortunately for Will, given that the best price of a new pair of shifters we can find is £175), Madison agreed to replace it. Here, we basically blagged a replacement for him, free of charge. Obviously the timescale was dictated by the manufacturer and was outside of our control, but by the time the replacement reappeared, this hard-up rider had already obtained a replacement, bought elsewhere, as is his right of course.

Lately, Will was convinced that he has a cracked frame. He brought the frame into the shop in mid April and it was inspected by Alastair, the workshop manager and the other workshop staff. Yes, they were sceptical, so a magnifying glass was bought so they could examine the frame in greater detail. We all looked at it, but we could not determine it either way. Will was advised that we would be happy to send the frame back, but that if the supplier refused to warranty the frame then he would have to stand the costs of shipping on this occasion. Will agreed to this and said that he would strip the bike down and bring the frame back. He dropped the bike in , I believe, late on Wednesday the 15th April. It was packed, and the warranty claim booked the following morning (16th April) and it was collected on Friday 17th April. Having heard nothing by the middle of the following week we chased up the claim and were informed by Madison that there was a backlog and it would be processed the week after. We chased them up again the following Tuesday (28th), and were informed that they would replace the frame and that the new one would be despatched that day. We received the replacement the next day and left a message for Will. He then collected it on the Saturday following.

I think we’ve done pretty much all we can for Will here, and have acted properly and swiftly. As you can see from the thread, he’s got himself a brand new bike in the meantime, so he can do with what he pleases with the Aether. Incidentally, Madison replaced the frame as a precautionary measure and have yet to assess it, so we are still none the wiser. We may never be, although we will continue to press them because we would like to know too.

I think that Will has been a little naughty here and with many previous posts, by throwing in casual one-line comments which could (and have been) interpreted in the worst possible way. I think most people should agree that we have done everything possible to look after this “sort of young inexperienced rider,” as Rob describes him. To be quite frank, I’m hopping mad to think that some club posters assume we are not looking after him or even trying to take advantage of him.

There is one further point I’d like to make about Will’s bike. He, or someone else, had carried out a lot of modification and component replacement on the bike - all parts bought elsewhere, as is his right. There is no way of knowing to what standard the fitting work has been carried out. There are a lot of areas of any bike where clumsy or incompetent work can cause the bike to ride poorly. I’m not saying this to wriggle out of any obligations (because as we have demonstrated, we have fulfilled and exceeded all of our obligations to date), but it is something that may have a bearing. Will didn’t take advantage of the 12 months free labour we gave him, and made clear to him, when he bought the bike. All of these modifications could have been carried out free of charge by one of our mechanics, at the same time as carrying out the odd service (free of charge), which the bike would clearly have benefitted from. We’ve only ever seen him in the shop when something has gone wrong. There is something a little one-sided about our relationship, I feel.

Now, clothing….. Dr Dave thinks we “have been less than 100% ideal regarding the club clothing and a few other issues”. We’ve done what we can Dr Dave. The club selected a manufacturer based in Portugal and initiated a business relationship with them. As one club member rightly pointed out to us, Cycle Heaven does not “own this relationship.” Cycle Heaven works as well as possible with this company. As you probably know, there is a minimum order quantity of 10 for each item, which makes it quite tricky to maintain stock of all sizes at all times. We currently have £2,500 of our money ‘invested’ in the stock of CCC club clothing. We have full stock in all sizes, as usual displayed prominently in the shop, which, by the way, prompts more than a few enquiring comments from customers wanting to know about the club. Given… that we make a smaller margin on club clothing than on our regular clothing lines (even before the club discount); that it takes up space that could be devoted to something else; and the limited market for such items, we can hardly be accused of profiteering. We are OK with this – it is a service that we are providing to the club.

Generally I’m a bit narked that Cycle Heaven is being portrayed implicitly, and in some cases explicitly, as not caring two hoots about customers and taking advantage of club members, or not helping them out with after sales service. This is a long way from the truth, as discussed above. We are aware that we are not everyone’s cup of tea, but that’s to be expected, because we can’t be great at everything - given that we are not a department store. Cyclists in the York area are lucky enough to have a good choice of excellent independent dealers and the beauty of independent businesses is that we all have our different niches. If we don’t do it for you, you can use someone else - Cycleworks, Haxby Cycles, Cyclesense, Fulford or Evans, if you prefer. We do, however, really appreciate the business we get from the members who do use us regularly and like to think that they come back because we look after them. In all of our day-to-day business we try to give good honest service and be fair with everyone.

Believe if or not, we don’t feel that we are in partnership with Clifton CC for the commercial opportunity it provides to flog stuff to the membership. For starters, we enjoy a reduced margin on what we sell to club members, and we also know (because we conducted a survey at an open evening), that a significant amount of you do most of your cycle shopping online. That’s fine too – that’s the commercial reality that we have to live with. But that being the case, it’s not then fair to criticise us when we don’t stock everything that the club rider might need. Grant us the freedom to make a living (because that is what it is for all Indies – a living, not a fortune!), providing goods and services to those people who do prefer to use us. Running a specialist independent store is not an easy business model - hard work and high maintenance as Halfords have just concluded. If Andy and I were in it for the money, well we just wouldn't. We basically do it because we love cycling and want to convert the world.

We support Clifton because we are impressed by the energy and enthusiasm of this very successful club and we believe that the club helps to increase participation in cycling in York. Looking at the big picture, we feel what’s good for cycling in York is good for us commercially and that’s about it. We also believe that we share the same goal of getting people involved in cycling and keeping them rolling with sound and honest service and advice which is why newcomers to the shop appreciate the introduction we often give them to Clifton CC.

New members also appreciate the 10% discount introduced by Cycle Heaven which, has since been adopted by other shops (and raised, rather bizarrely, to 11% by one shop!). We certainly don’t believe that we are profiteering from the membership and are happy to continue offering all the perks - the discounts on just about everything, the supply service for clothing, the prizes for races, the free in-shop publicity and a notice board for information.

I know I’m a newbie to standing shop-side of the counter, but if that’s not good enough to warrant carrying the Cycle Heaven logo on the shirt, I don’t know what people expect.

There, that’s got that off my chest, I feel better now. If you stuck with me, you’ve got stamina and you should be fine for the season ahead!

By the way, Will, I’m sorry to read on the other thread that you are suffering a bit with your knees. It sounds like you should listen to your mates and give your knees a bit of a rest. Your body is telling you that it needs a bit of time out. Then get back on with the 170 cranks and everything else set up as originally recommended!

Piers

One comment from me: a few weeks ago I needed some 16mm high pressure 700C rim tape in a hurry. That's not a common thing to have in stock and I went to Cycleworks, Cycle Republic and then Cycle Heaven in search of it.

Neither of the first two had it in stock (not surprising) but Cycle Heaven came up total trumps by rummaging round in the back and finding some rim tape that was used but in perfect nick and got me back on the road. Even better, as it was used, they didn't charge me a penny.

I was very impressed.

I'd just like to back up what Piers has said about clothing. We pay a bit more via CH than we would do buying direct from the manufacturers but the arrangement means the kit is always there on the racks and anyone can buy anytime. On top of that, coordinating orders direct to the manufacturer takes up a fantastic amount of time, while potential buyers debate whether they're this size or that size. Having the kit there for people to try on makes life for us as a club much, much easier.

I'll post abit more later.

Just to make clear, the shifter was not crash damage, I've never crashed the Genesis, I was going down Oxford road to a club run when I set off from a traffic light and changed gear, gear cable snapped, I thought a new cable would do it, I was faffing about for ages trying to figure why the cable would not go in, I never realized it was broke for quite a while then I discovered that some how something got caught or the shifter just broke randomly? I've seen other cases of this on the Internets. Shortly after, infact a couple of days after the left shifter also broke!, don't know why, I know my front mech snapped in half, the left shifter just would not shift the front mech down when I got a new one on, was not me setting it up as other people had a look at it. In the mean time I bought a new set of Tiagra to use as it would be a while until I got those other ones, then the ones I got through RMA I flogged on the bay since I only need one set.

I dont see what was naughty about that? I had not even had the thing a year and it broke, clearly should not have happened, yes I did do around 3000+ miles on but plenty of people have got much more than that.

I aplogize if I have posted some comments that may appear to show Cycle Heaven in a bad light, I do not intend to do that, I think it's a great shop and I would/will buy from there again..

I am aware you spent your time off that day and I was surprised and very greatful for that thankyou.

The Genesis was running like a dream untill I moved to manchester then it started falling apart by itself, maybe my lack of maintainance skills, but It has taught me a great deal and hoping by next winter the same thing wont happen. It must have been salt water that cause it and my frequency of cycling and no taking it to shop for a service, I wasent going to pay prices in Manchester for services tbh, I think I can service a bike myself now though as I've learnt a great deal. The Genesis is now going to be a winter bike with full mud guards on, I'm hoping this might turn out slightly cheaper or the same as the wear on my main bike and the winter bike should be reduced, since winter does not last forever!

Cycle Heaven wrote:Hello,
After my Easter holiday and seeing the forum, I thought “Blimey, we’re getting a bit of a shoeing from all angles here!” This has gone on for months, so we think it’s high time we had our say…

There's lots to agree with in this post - and though it's not "my" LBS, Cycle Heaven is a good shop, not least because, of the several good bike shops I know around York, it has the clearest commitment to *cycling* rather than just bikes. I also think the point about free labour is well made - I do the mundane maintenance (tyres, brakeblocks etc) on my bikes, but for real surgery I take them in, and because I do that consistently I think the guy in the shop knows exactly what's going on, because it's pretty much all his work. That's not to say you shouldn't D-I-Y, but you then have to ready to take full responsibility for the work you've done.

But there's one point I don't like at all:

I think that Will has been a little naughty here and with many previous posts, by throwing in casual one-line comments which could (and have been) interpreted in the worst possible way.

I just don't think that's fair, and I also think it's a little bit hypocritical to complain about "casual one-line comments" getting a negative spin by throwing in a ... casual comment which is vague enough to be negative without any concrete support.

Nobody with a job has time to search through all Will's posts, so it's hard to debunk this claim conclusively, but here's a couple of his remarks just from this thread:

"Must say though the guys in CH are really helpfull, for at least 1 hour a guy was helping me and answering any question I had, if it was somewhere like halfords where they all look depressed I'm pretty sure they would of told me to **** off, he even shook my hand as I'm about to go they very frinedly in there."

"Just thought I'd share that, pretty happy with cycle heavan though, its all good and they are vv helpful."

So far, so positive (if a little weak on spelling). I did find one remark which more or less fit Piers' bill, in another thread. But that wasn't even spontaneous - it was a response to an invitation from ClaireG. Here's an extract:

[A lot of talk about cracked Genesis, new Cannondale from Haxby.]

ClaireG: "I don't personally have a high opinion of Cycle Heaven, so it would be good for my prejudice to hear you've had some good service from them on this forum, perhaps? "

Will: "... I dont know what to think of Cycle Heaven, they are certianly miles better than Halfords and I guess they've been ok, I dont like to bad mouth companys much though."

[Implication being... if it weren't for my scruples, I would have something bad to say? Anyway, some people took that as an invite to dis the 'Hev', until Phil fired a warning shot...]

Phil Bixby: "Just make sure that when you report things on here you give the full facts - it's a public forum..."

Will: "Yes I am well aware they read and I'm not trying to take the p155 or bad mouth them or anything. TBH when I bought my Genesis I think they gave me good advice etc... I would buy a bike from Cycle heaven again, just I think I'd choose a better brand with better specs and frame than the Genesis"

So even in that case, I'd say the comment wasn't casual but solicited, and although others did take it negatively, after prompting Will came back very positively with the detail. And this is just ONE case I could find (as against "many previous posts"). As I said already, I can't read through the whole back-catalogue (and you can edit post-facto), but I did read most of it at the time and I just don't remember a load of slurs or insinuations. Maybe Piers can fill in the gaps...

Tom