Its been a bit quiet on here lately, so I thought I'd try and stir you up a bit!
Mr Armstrong riding the TdF this year is a really bad thing for the sport. Discuss.
Or if that one doesn't get you going, how about: What would Dave Brailsford make of Stevie Gerard's antics?
Who wants an argument?
Moderator: Moderators
Debate? please dont get Mr Hub started or create an argument about who's training techniques work best, opps sorry did I side track slightly.
I think Armstrongs return is a good and a bad thing, it raises the profile of the sport by generating media interrest, however if he fails to deliver it will generate more speculation about wether he doped or not!
On a sporting level if he is up there with the best in the grand tours then the racing could become boring again with one team dominating again, the Italians have already fledged allegance with one another to stop Armstrong dominating at the Giro, reading between the lines that tells me the current crop of professionals cyclist dont want him there.
I think Armstrongs return is a good and a bad thing, it raises the profile of the sport by generating media interrest, however if he fails to deliver it will generate more speculation about wether he doped or not!
On a sporting level if he is up there with the best in the grand tours then the racing could become boring again with one team dominating again, the Italians have already fledged allegance with one another to stop Armstrong dominating at the Giro, reading between the lines that tells me the current crop of professionals cyclist dont want him there.
Oh god, don't get me started. We have what, three years from Operacion Puerto onwards telling ourselves that they're pulling out the last rotten apples and there'll be a new generation along next. We get riders like Cavendish come along and we breath a sigh of relief that things are changing. Then *****y Armstrong decides he's bored, has spent too long out of the limelight and fancies another go at it.
Let's buy a bike mag to flop on the sofa with. Procycling:- special Q&A issue with - well I never - Lance Armstrong. Cycle Sport:- Lance Armstrong meets his Astana team-mates. And this was after both of last month's issues being substantially Armstrong-based too. I'm sick of it. Okay, I've had a couple of glasses of wine but even before that I was sick of it. Can't we just move on?
Let's buy a bike mag to flop on the sofa with. Procycling:- special Q&A issue with - well I never - Lance Armstrong. Cycle Sport:- Lance Armstrong meets his Astana team-mates. And this was after both of last month's issues being substantially Armstrong-based too. I'm sick of it. Okay, I've had a couple of glasses of wine but even before that I was sick of it. Can't we just move on?
Maybe a minority view but I always thought that we went on the basis of innocent until proven guilty. By that standard he is a bike rider who retired and has then come out of retirement - end of.
He has as much right as anyone to ride again - I don't understand why he should be vilified for coming back - unless you take him to be guilty of the whole doping/massive con thing.
Personally I think that he may well have doped like most of that (and previous) generation - but if so is he any better or worse than all the others?
Of course I am thinking of him as a bike racer not as a personality. If we are taking about a mere popularity contest.......
He has as much right as anyone to ride again - I don't understand why he should be vilified for coming back - unless you take him to be guilty of the whole doping/massive con thing.
Personally I think that he may well have doped like most of that (and previous) generation - but if so is he any better or worse than all the others?
Of course I am thinking of him as a bike racer not as a personality. If we are taking about a mere popularity contest.......
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MichaelCarter
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 12:16 pm
"we went on the basis of innocent until proven guilty"
exactly!
The cycling world should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for constantly accusing a man who has proved his innocence on numerous occasions. A man that not only came back from cancer but also set up a foundation for others in similar positions. If this happened in any other walk of life there would be an outcry. The moment you deviate from innocent until proven guilty is the moment justice fails.
Yes cycling has had a drug problem, sure it still does but people are being caught. To constantly accuse a man who is reputedly the most drug tested person of all time is (in my opinion) ridiculous.
(Not that I'm claiming that Rob was wrong for bringing it up, we are long overdue a good scrap on here!)
exactly!
The cycling world should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for constantly accusing a man who has proved his innocence on numerous occasions. A man that not only came back from cancer but also set up a foundation for others in similar positions. If this happened in any other walk of life there would be an outcry. The moment you deviate from innocent until proven guilty is the moment justice fails.
Yes cycling has had a drug problem, sure it still does but people are being caught. To constantly accuse a man who is reputedly the most drug tested person of all time is (in my opinion) ridiculous.
(Not that I'm claiming that Rob was wrong for bringing it up, we are long overdue a good scrap on here!)
Re: Who wants an argument?
Rob wrote:Or if that one doesn't get you going, how about: What would Dave Brailsford make of Stevie Gerard's antics?
Seems like a trend hereMichaelCarter wrote:we went on the basis if innocent until proven guilty
I don't have any particular issues about Armstrong and drugs, just about Armstrong being very dull, being very controlling within the sport, and being centre of a media fixation which mixes laziness with a desperation to sell magazines or airtime to people who don't really give a stuff about cycle sport. He's also part of a generation (and I think someone documented nicely on here how virtually his entire team at USPS has now been busted for drug use at one time or another - Armstrong may have ridden clean but by 'eck he's benefited from drug use!) which the public associates with drug abuse. Until the sport moves on, and new faces come to the fore, we'll be stuck in it.
Whether or not he was/is clean, I dont think thats the problem with his return. The fact that he has come into a team with, undoubtedly, the best current Grand Tour rider in the world is the bad thing. It will either mean that, Lance being Johan Bruyneel's favourite rider (not that he's said that, but it is obvious), young Contador will have to put his own aspirations and talents on hold to tow Lance round France/Italy, and a very predictable tour will result, with Contador, Kloden, Leipheimer, Zubeldia, Popovych etc to help Armstrong win... another Tour, which is both boring to watch and selfish on Lance's part, or Lance will have to pull out after, say, two weeks, realising he cant actually do this any more, yet Contador will be too low down to win, having been forced to sacrifice his position in order to help him, and so someone less deserving would win.
And I dont think he will raise the profile of the TDU either, he will get attention, but not for his racing there.
I agree with Phil, cycle sport has had too much Armstrong recently! But thats exactly what he wants: Attention and the spotlight. Maybe hes trying to get it all now, because maybe as soon as he races again, he might not actually do very well... ?
And I dont think he will raise the profile of the TDU either, he will get attention, but not for his racing there.
I agree with Phil, cycle sport has had too much Armstrong recently! But thats exactly what he wants: Attention and the spotlight. Maybe hes trying to get it all now, because maybe as soon as he races again, he might not actually do very well... ?
I gave up cycle mags a while ago and don't miss them at all. I'd seen Armstrong was set to make a comeback on the BBC website "to raise awareness of the cancer community" or something. I'm not too sure how he's proposing to do this? I also see he's riding for Astana - a team thats only ever going to be remembered for a major tour doping scandal. Strangely the Astana team was barred from the Tour last year but appears to be in it this year? Armstrong may be riding clean but does himself no favours associating himself with a tainted team.
As for Steven Gerrard - instant sacking - no wonder we never win anything if respected players spend their recovery time in nightclubs. It shouldn't be a big sacrifice on somebody earning that sort of brass. Besides which I cannot believe a top players would allow himself to be caught up in a nightclub fight - guilty or not he shouldn't be there. I'm fairly sure any rider on the GB cycling team would be straight off the team in similar circumstances. Different culture.
As for Steven Gerrard - instant sacking - no wonder we never win anything if respected players spend their recovery time in nightclubs. It shouldn't be a big sacrifice on somebody earning that sort of brass. Besides which I cannot believe a top players would allow himself to be caught up in a nightclub fight - guilty or not he shouldn't be there. I'm fairly sure any rider on the GB cycling team would be straight off the team in similar circumstances. Different culture.
The problem with instant sacking of Stevie G would be the fact that another club would pick him up. What he did, as in going to a night club and being provoked was obviously wrong.
However unlike the cycling, where the pool of athletes is small compare with the pool of footballers, causing the top of the pyramid to be amazingly high, replacing him with someone in his class would cost £35m, whilst Liverpool would have thrown away the same, therefore costing the club £70m, does not really make sense in these credit crunch times.
As far as Armstrong coming back, as an old guy, I think it is wonderful, gives hope to us all!
Although as you can tell I'm much more passionate aout the Stevie G issue, when we look like we might actually win the title.
Brian
ps. Just arrived back from Portugal where it was a cool 14C - 18C, with this weather I think I'll go back
However unlike the cycling, where the pool of athletes is small compare with the pool of footballers, causing the top of the pyramid to be amazingly high, replacing him with someone in his class would cost £35m, whilst Liverpool would have thrown away the same, therefore costing the club £70m, does not really make sense in these credit crunch times.
As far as Armstrong coming back, as an old guy, I think it is wonderful, gives hope to us all!
Although as you can tell I'm much more passionate aout the Stevie G issue, when we look like we might actually win the title.
Brian
ps. Just arrived back from Portugal where it was a cool 14C - 18C, with this weather I think I'll go back
I was at the Newcastle game for which he was arrested later that evening.paulM wrote:I gave up cycle mags a while ago and don't miss them at all. I'd seen Armstrong was set to make a comeback on the BBC website "to raise awareness of the cancer community" or something. I'm not too sure how he's proposing to do this? I also see he's riding for Astana - a team thats only ever going to be remembered for a major tour doping scandal. Strangely the Astana team was barred from the Tour last year but appears to be in it this year? Armstrong may be riding clean but does himself no favours associating himself with a tainted team.
As for Steven Gerrard - instant sacking - no wonder we never win anything if respected players spend their recovery time in nightclubs. It shouldn't be a big sacrifice on somebody earning that sort of brass. Besides which I cannot believe a top players would allow himself to be caught up in a nightclub fight - guilty or not he shouldn't be there. I'm fairly sure any rider on the GB cycling team would be straight off the team in similar circumstances. Different culture.
Take it from me he didn't need any recovery time, sadly he never needed to get into 2nd gear to run the show.
[quote="justsweat"]The problem with instant sacking of Stevie G would be the fact that another club would pick him up. What he did, as in going to a night club and being provoked was obviously wrong.
However unlike the cycling, where the pool of athletes is small compare with the pool of footballers, causing the top of the pyramid to be amazingly high, replacing him with someone in his class would cost £35m, whilst Liverpool would have thrown away the same, therefore costing the club £70m, does not really make sense in these credit crunch times.
As far as Armstrong coming back, as an old guy, I think it is wonderful, gives hope to us all!
Although as you can tell I'm much more passionate aout the Stevie G issue, when we look like we might actually win the title.
Aah you're not speaking impartially, Brian!
But the fact that gerrard is such a well respected player and role model makes things worse and the fact that the club feel the need to support him is simply crap.
The cost of players of Gerrards calibre is simply ghastly and really just goes to show how out of touch the top level of the sport is, and when the players behave like this, how out of touch they are also.
I'm trying to think how being beating up a dj and then being arrested would effect my career prospects?
However unlike the cycling, where the pool of athletes is small compare with the pool of footballers, causing the top of the pyramid to be amazingly high, replacing him with someone in his class would cost £35m, whilst Liverpool would have thrown away the same, therefore costing the club £70m, does not really make sense in these credit crunch times.
As far as Armstrong coming back, as an old guy, I think it is wonderful, gives hope to us all!
Although as you can tell I'm much more passionate aout the Stevie G issue, when we look like we might actually win the title.
Aah you're not speaking impartially, Brian!
But the fact that gerrard is such a well respected player and role model makes things worse and the fact that the club feel the need to support him is simply crap.
The cost of players of Gerrards calibre is simply ghastly and really just goes to show how out of touch the top level of the sport is, and when the players behave like this, how out of touch they are also.
I'm trying to think how being beating up a dj and then being arrested would effect my career prospects?