I wasn't sure whether this should be posted here or in the Training Forum but thought it would be more visible here and would also attract comment from folk with relevant opinions here..
As a relative Newb I assume that others have also been through the phenomenon of a reasonable improvement in standard in the first couple of years of cycling followed by a 'plateauxing' in ability which I feel is increasingly relevant to myself.
I believe I am right in thinking that to gain further improvement I need to refine what I am doing on the bike and adopt a more formal training type regime rather than continuing in a relatively unstructured manner.
My difficulty is that there appears to be a tension - at least for me - between traditional 'club run' cycling (which I do on Saturdays and Tuesdays) and the kind of formalised 'base training then intervals' which I believe I should be doing if I was to follow a 'proper' training regime over the next few months. Specifically on a Saturday (and Tuesdays) most weeks the riding is too hard to fit the criteria for base/endurance work and is thus detrimental to my long-term progress.
It seems to me that unless group rides are subject to pre-ride agreement/cooperation eg 'HR in Zone 2 for 2 hrs' then they are best avoided if I am serious about formalising what I am doing so that it constitutes a proper training regime. I believe I am right in thinking of a few members who largely shun group cycling for this reason.
On the other hand I enjoy riding with the friends I have made through the club and don't want to lose this...
I can't be the only one to whom this applies - what do others think and do some of the 'wise old heads' have any views?
I appreciate that I am too old and have too little natural ability to ever 'mix it' with 'proper' racing cyclists but would like to develop what abilities I do have.
Observation and perhaps a question...
Moderator: Moderators
Being the person who potificates about 'base' more often than anyone else I thought I'd put the first reply in.
I think it is important to know what your trying to achieve, but there are ways to achieve it whilst still enjoying the club run. Tuesdays, even last Tuesday (which was faster than most) you could have ridden as a base ride, by just not racing up the hills. I was happily sitting at 70% until we hit them. I don't think I could have led at that pace and still been at 70%, so a bit of wheel sucking was in order.
Basically I feel you need to do a nominal 100 hours at around 70%, after that once every 2 weeks you have to do a session of LSD (not the drug, but 'long slow distance'). So every other Tuesday instead of riding fast up the hills and waiting, ride up watching your HR.
Once the base is out of the way, the training needs to suit the events you are trying to compete in. The people I coach decide on A, B & C races. The A races you taper for properly. If for example the Etape was your main objective, then you need to be able to ride 8 hours hard, taking on the right nutrition, that you have tested in training at the same effort level for a similar duration. I think being specific in the 3 months leading to an event is really important.
To decide on your zones I would suggest you get lactate tested, this is a lot more acurate than power testing or HR testing (it includes both) and means you can use the HR at whatever level of fitness you are at.
Brian
I think it is important to know what your trying to achieve, but there are ways to achieve it whilst still enjoying the club run. Tuesdays, even last Tuesday (which was faster than most) you could have ridden as a base ride, by just not racing up the hills. I was happily sitting at 70% until we hit them. I don't think I could have led at that pace and still been at 70%, so a bit of wheel sucking was in order.
Basically I feel you need to do a nominal 100 hours at around 70%, after that once every 2 weeks you have to do a session of LSD (not the drug, but 'long slow distance'). So every other Tuesday instead of riding fast up the hills and waiting, ride up watching your HR.
Once the base is out of the way, the training needs to suit the events you are trying to compete in. The people I coach decide on A, B & C races. The A races you taper for properly. If for example the Etape was your main objective, then you need to be able to ride 8 hours hard, taking on the right nutrition, that you have tested in training at the same effort level for a similar duration. I think being specific in the 3 months leading to an event is really important.
To decide on your zones I would suggest you get lactate tested, this is a lot more acurate than power testing or HR testing (it includes both) and means you can use the HR at whatever level of fitness you are at.
Brian
I'll quickly add my two-penn'uth..
I think the kind of training that works best for each of us varies - partly on the basis of what we want to achieve and partly on the basis of what sort of people we are. Some people (Muzzy for example) seem to do really well out of group rides as base mileage when paired up with more specific sessions. I think Brian's comments about hills are very sane - most "steady" group rides aren't steady at all but that's largely because no-one can face keeping off the gas on the hills.
I tend to do most of my riding on my own. Partly this is because I get out when work allows and when weather looks good, partly because I enjoy the time to think, and partly because I can focus on a very specific level of effort - all of which goes back to the "what sort of people we are" thing - I like the numbers.
Just to finish tho - there's no such thing as "too old" for racing, especially with the TLI's and LVRC events. I started at 45 and the reason I'm not better is not that I'm too old, but that I still haven't sorted my head out for proper race mode. Age brings patience and endurance, but also long-established habits to overcome!
"Proper training" isn't just for racing tho....
I think the kind of training that works best for each of us varies - partly on the basis of what we want to achieve and partly on the basis of what sort of people we are. Some people (Muzzy for example) seem to do really well out of group rides as base mileage when paired up with more specific sessions. I think Brian's comments about hills are very sane - most "steady" group rides aren't steady at all but that's largely because no-one can face keeping off the gas on the hills.
I tend to do most of my riding on my own. Partly this is because I get out when work allows and when weather looks good, partly because I enjoy the time to think, and partly because I can focus on a very specific level of effort - all of which goes back to the "what sort of people we are" thing - I like the numbers.
Just to finish tho - there's no such thing as "too old" for racing, especially with the TLI's and LVRC events. I started at 45 and the reason I'm not better is not that I'm too old, but that I still haven't sorted my head out for proper race mode. Age brings patience and endurance, but also long-established habits to overcome!
"Proper training" isn't just for racing tho....
I thought I'd wait for Brian and Phil to reply before disagreeing...
But in fact there's little to disagree with. I'm not as keen as Brian on *exclusively* steady training, but you are right to question the suitability of clubruns as base training. I think it's pretty safe to say:
1. If all your longer rides are attack-the-hills group rides, you aren't getting the most aerobic benefit from the hours you put in.
2. However, club runs can still be a useful part of 'base' training.
I'd suggest sticking with the club run once a week, wearing an HRM and not competing on the hills; and making your other long run a flatter, steadier, possibly solo effort. It's likely that on a group ride you spend a fair bit of time *below* the best training intensity, so you can use this second ride to keep a much more consistent level of effort.
After a couple of months of this, as Brian says, the next step depends on your targets. And that's perhaps the key: the 'plateau problem' - lack of improvements after an initial honeymoon period - is real and familiar, and is best tackled by getting specific about what you want to achieve. Then you give yourself both the motivation to train effectively, AND hopefully an objective measure of the fruits of your labours (eg. 'cracking 25mins for a 10mile tt' rather than 'being nearer the front on the hills in the club run')
If you get this right, you can move from a motivational slump (what's the point in all this riding, I never seem to get any faster) to a virtuous circle (I'm going to do 2hrs@140hr and see if I can't knock another 10s off my tt next week). But it requires some careful thought and planning.
But none of that should stop you enjoying a club run. I'd be out with the club every weekend if I didn't have a small club to entertain at home first.
Tom
Is it Muzzy next?
But in fact there's little to disagree with. I'm not as keen as Brian on *exclusively* steady training, but you are right to question the suitability of clubruns as base training. I think it's pretty safe to say:
1. If all your longer rides are attack-the-hills group rides, you aren't getting the most aerobic benefit from the hours you put in.
2. However, club runs can still be a useful part of 'base' training.
I'd suggest sticking with the club run once a week, wearing an HRM and not competing on the hills; and making your other long run a flatter, steadier, possibly solo effort. It's likely that on a group ride you spend a fair bit of time *below* the best training intensity, so you can use this second ride to keep a much more consistent level of effort.
After a couple of months of this, as Brian says, the next step depends on your targets. And that's perhaps the key: the 'plateau problem' - lack of improvements after an initial honeymoon period - is real and familiar, and is best tackled by getting specific about what you want to achieve. Then you give yourself both the motivation to train effectively, AND hopefully an objective measure of the fruits of your labours (eg. 'cracking 25mins for a 10mile tt' rather than 'being nearer the front on the hills in the club run')
If you get this right, you can move from a motivational slump (what's the point in all this riding, I never seem to get any faster) to a virtuous circle (I'm going to do 2hrs@140hr and see if I can't knock another 10s off my tt next week). But it requires some careful thought and planning.
But none of that should stop you enjoying a club run. I'd be out with the club every weekend if I didn't have a small club to entertain at home first.
Tom
Is it Muzzy next?
Here I am Tom!
Dave - your aims seem a bit vague - what are you hoping to achieve. I'm not sure how anyone can offer advice without knowing this?
As for club runs - you are correct they ain't the place to train properly but that was never the intention. I've always tended to do them from the end of the season up till Christmas and then start doing a none stop ride up to the start of the racing season.
Around 2002/3 BC (before children) there was a big group going out from the square on a Saturday morning - 2 to 3 hours fast training and same again Sunday for 3/4 hours. My best racing came on the back of this. What happened to it?
Dave - your aims seem a bit vague - what are you hoping to achieve. I'm not sure how anyone can offer advice without knowing this?
As for club runs - you are correct they ain't the place to train properly but that was never the intention. I've always tended to do them from the end of the season up till Christmas and then start doing a none stop ride up to the start of the racing season.
Around 2002/3 BC (before children) there was a big group going out from the square on a Saturday morning - 2 to 3 hours fast training and same again Sunday for 3/4 hours. My best racing came on the back of this. What happened to it?
I think my best season so far came from the a winter of the following, saturday morning training ride with the guys, typically 2 1/2 hours brisk and the sunday club run, then after christmas the club run was replaced with a 3/4 hour fast ride. The weight dropped off and I could climb well enough to always be there at the end of a Regional A race.
I think there will be enough interest to get at least one of these training rides starting again after the New Year.paulM wrote: Around 2002/3 BC (before children) there was a big group going out from the square on a Saturday morning - 2 to 3 hours fast training and same again Sunday for 3/4 hours. My best racing came on the back of this. What happened to it?
I think this may have diverted away from Dave's initial topic slightly but this is relevant to the last few posts.
One of the things that initially attracted me to the club earlier this summer was reading on the website about the 3 to 4 hour training rides . Then having started riding with the club doing a few club runs I was a little disappointed that these don't seem to happen. Firstly I find structured training in a group far more motivating than slogging it our on your own. Secondly, committing 8 hours every weekend to a full day club run can be difficult. The prospect of a solid morning session and still having the afternoon free is most appealing so if this can start up again I'd be up for it.
Andrew
One of the things that initially attracted me to the club earlier this summer was reading on the website about the 3 to 4 hour training rides . Then having started riding with the club doing a few club runs I was a little disappointed that these don't seem to happen. Firstly I find structured training in a group far more motivating than slogging it our on your own. Secondly, committing 8 hours every weekend to a full day club run can be difficult. The prospect of a solid morning session and still having the afternoon free is most appealing so if this can start up again I'd be up for it.
Andrew
Dave,
I don't make it out every Saturday but when I do I would be up for a LSD ride!
I would also be happy to ride single speed to keep the pase down for the long rides.
I think having the option on Saturday for a long slow or short fast ride would benifit many. Lets talk about it in the square tomorrow!
Simon
I don't make it out every Saturday but when I do I would be up for a LSD ride!
I would also be happy to ride single speed to keep the pase down for the long rides.
I think having the option on Saturday for a long slow or short fast ride would benifit many. Lets talk about it in the square tomorrow!
Simon
I did the Saturday "training" ride pretty much every week through the winter about three years ago. Nick B, Steve Wood and others were regulars but numbers eventually dwindled - last time out I remember it was just me and Hans, and the stress of the upcoming sprint at Strensall nearly got to me....
It would be good if this kicked off again - I'd probably do it fairly often if it was a non-stop ride; I (like others, apparently) just can't give over a whole Saturday to riding. The idea of sticking Simon on the front on a singlespeed is excellent, too!
It would be good if this kicked off again - I'd probably do it fairly often if it was a non-stop ride; I (like others, apparently) just can't give over a whole Saturday to riding. The idea of sticking Simon on the front on a singlespeed is excellent, too!
Brian you're right about the 'sitting' in but I worry that this isn't perhaps fair to the others I'm riding with. I like to feel that I'm taking a share of the work but often I have no choice as I'm sometimes having to go at 80-90% just to hang on in the bunch (see last Saturday's ride report!) and if I take a turn on the front I'm at 90+ %.justsweat wrote:I think it is important to know what your trying to achieve, but there are ways to achieve it whilst still enjoying the club run. Tuesdays, even last Tuesday (which was faster than most) you could have ridden as a base ride, by just not racing up the hills. I was happily sitting at 70% until we hit them. I don't think I could have led at that pace and still been at 70%, so a bit of wheel sucking was in order.
Perhaps I should ask Kev if I could rejoin his group on Saturdays where I could ride at 70% and not get dropped
Paul you're right - I am vague about what I want. I'm not too bothered about TTing so I guess road-race type riding is what I mean - being able to ride harder, faster for longer and be able to respond to accelerations better.Dave - your aims seem a bit vague - what are you hoping to achieve. I'm not sure how anyone can offer advice without knowing this?
The books go on about Periodisation etc - perhaps I need to decide if I'm prepared to be disciplined enough to follow a 'proper' training regime (and then do so!) or quit fantasising over being a real 'rider' and accept being a 'jonny-come-lately' weekend social cyclist...
I don't know what age you are Dave, but you are definitely not too old
to start racing or even to improve with age. I started when I was about
12, packed in at 18, started again at 27 and retired again at 38 (All to do
with Armed Forces way of life). I re-surfaced again at 55 when I joined the Clifton. During my first 2 spells I did both road racing (got to Cat 1
twice) and TT but when I started with the Clifton I just did TT. When I was
56 rears old I did a 58 minute 25 and many 22 and 23 minute 10s. A couple of years ago I did a few of the Tuesday TLI road events and just
about managed to hang on to the end. My training has always consisted
of hard and fast whether by myself or with others and as long as I made
sure that I had the right amount of rest it seemed to work for me.
While I appreciate that bike training now benefits from high technology, with all
the electronic gismos that go with it, I sometimes think that too much
emphasis is placed on measuring heart rate, power output, lactate
levels etc, etc, in the end training should replicate racing and that is
always hard and fast (or should be).
So my advice Dave, is to get a good basis of miles with the club during
the winter (at least 2000 miles) and from end of March onwards start
the hard and fast riding (self or club) that you will experience whilst
racing. Good Luck.
to start racing or even to improve with age. I started when I was about
12, packed in at 18, started again at 27 and retired again at 38 (All to do
with Armed Forces way of life). I re-surfaced again at 55 when I joined the Clifton. During my first 2 spells I did both road racing (got to Cat 1
twice) and TT but when I started with the Clifton I just did TT. When I was
56 rears old I did a 58 minute 25 and many 22 and 23 minute 10s. A couple of years ago I did a few of the Tuesday TLI road events and just
about managed to hang on to the end. My training has always consisted
of hard and fast whether by myself or with others and as long as I made
sure that I had the right amount of rest it seemed to work for me.
While I appreciate that bike training now benefits from high technology, with all
the electronic gismos that go with it, I sometimes think that too much
emphasis is placed on measuring heart rate, power output, lactate
levels etc, etc, in the end training should replicate racing and that is
always hard and fast (or should be).
So my advice Dave, is to get a good basis of miles with the club during
the winter (at least 2000 miles) and from end of March onwards start
the hard and fast riding (self or club) that you will experience whilst
racing. Good Luck.