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by Rob Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:18 am
We did a very long clubrun yesterday in warm sticky conditions. 160 miles of mixed terrain in 9 hours riding time. 2 stops: 3 hours - cafe - 3 hours - cafe - 3 hours - home! The pace wasn't exactly "full on" but we weren't hanging about either!

Can anybody estimate the calorie burn?

We ate some rubbish! We thought it might be worth sharing what was consumed for critique by John (or anyone else). I should just say that with this sort of ride there are limitations over what you can carry, cafes don't tend to serve wholemeal pasta or porridge (organic or inorganic), there's a degree of comfort eating going on and sometimes its a case of eating what you can stomach (anything is better than nothing when you're about to knock!) So putting the above reservations on one side for a minute, between us:

On the road:
Most of us appeared to be getting through 1.5litres of liquid during each 3 hour phase and then rehydrating in the cafe. It was a mixture of water and isotonic drink. Plus a small plantation of bananas, various muesli bars, flap-jacks, nuts, dried fruit, pumpkin seeds and twix fingers (somewhat melted).

In the cafe:
Tea, coffee, squash, coke, diet coke.
Lasagne and chips, bacon sandwiches, jacket spuds (tuna, cheese+beans), tea cakes, crumble/custard, cheesecake, misc cakes, Yorks curd tarts, apple pie and ice cream.

Actually, we stopped in the same cafe out and back - they were strangely pleased to see us return!!

Go on then, what do you think? Don't be too hard on us!

by JohnGray Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:25 pm
Sorry it has taken a while to reply but I had to get hold of a computer in our lab which has dietary analysis to figure this one out!Right, let’s have a look at what was needed and then figure out if you got it.

If you cycled 160 miles in 9 hours that’s averaging a pace of about 17.5 miles an hour. In terms of energy expenditure, and I can’t be accurate here because I would need to have people’s heart rates and body weight etc, it is at least 5000 calories burned. If you go online and find a calorie calculator you will get a wild variance due to the fact that not all of them allow for the high speed cycling. But the Readers Digest one I found did allow for cycling at 14 -15.9 mph and suggested that a 180lb (that’s about 13 stone or 81kg) cyclist will burn 7363 calories during a 9 hour ride. If you add on your base physiological needs of about 2000 calories, that’s nearly 10,000 calories needed for the day! Anyone feel knackered on Monday?
So using the typical break down of 60% Carbohydrates, 30% Fats and 10% Proteins for 7000 cals used the diet should look something like 4200 cals from carbs, 2100 from fats and 700 from proteins.

Unfortunately, I can’t be accurate on what you actually ate because I don’t know portion sizes, the way the chips were made etc. so this is a very rough idea. The nuts and dried fruits I have taken as a random mix. The bacon sandwich on the computer has lettuce and tomatoes with it so whoever that was I have given you the benefit of the doubt however as for what misc. cakes are I dreaded to think.

(By the way on a personal note I love the diet coke bit, was someone feeling guilty for the custard? Definite sign of spare tire paranoia there I feel)

Looking at the foods as a whole, I have analysed everything together as though someone ate one average portion (e.g. chips) or item (e.g. a banana) of each of the items you list. I know that’s not particularly realistic but it will give us some ideas on the foods as a whole but if anyone has a more accurate diet breakdown please give me a shout.

Energy Kcal 5453.7
Fat Total 258g
Polyunsaturates 42.2g
Monounsaturates 88.5g
Saturates 93.01g
Protein 159.38g
Carbohydrate Total 665.67g
Sugars 322.67g
Starches 339.71g

So in terms of total energy if our hypothetical rider ate one portion of everything on your list their energy taken in wouldn't be so bad however what is immediately apparent is the high fat content of the food.

Approx 43% of the calories come from fats whereas the carbohydrate content is only 46%. Plus the fats that are being taken in are in the approx quantities of 42g polyunsaturated, 89g monounsaturated and 93g saturated. The saturated fats are the bad ones and so I would suggest cutting some of those out. Looking at where that fat may have come from it is probably the high quantity of dairy (cheese, ice cream, custard etc), nuts & seeds and possibly the meat in the lasagne.

Therefore to help with performance and recovery you need to start looking at ways of cutting down on the fats and increasing the carbs. One way would be to have a small portion of things like lasagne, tuna and cheese and increase the portions of bread, pasta and potato that go with it. Now as I said I haven’t been able to be super accurate here as I have used average portion sizes so it may be that you had giant potatoes and a triple helping of chips etc. But you get the idea.

Things like nuts and seeds, although healthy in many ways are possibly too low in carbohydrates to be of optimal use during a ride. A great source of vitamins and minerals but the fats and proteins can ‘fill you up’ and therefore may reduce hunger for taking on board carbs which may be more useful. Perhaps replace the nuts with a fruity muffin or similar.

In terms of the carbs there is a spread of sugars and starches which on a long ride may not be a problem per se but what I don’t know is what was eaten when. Due to the length of the ride there should be time for the ‘chips and lasagne’ to be digested ready for use by the end of the exercise but as you mentioned two stops these should have be eaten at the first. When eating during such a long ride try to eat the ‘starchy foods’ (potatoes, wholegrains etc) early on and the sugars (sweets, bananas etc) towards the end. Having such ‘complex carbs’ at the 2nd stop may not have allowed time for there digestion as

Fluids are always an awkward one to get right. I would also suggest that the coffee, coke, diet coke and tea are not considered as part of your fluid regime due to the possible diuretic effects of caffeine. The practical way to assess if you drank enough would be to weigh yourself before and after the ride and for every kg lost drink 1 litre of fluid. Drinking 1.5 litres would suggest a loss of 1.5kg in bodyweight during the ride.

However after all the cakes, custard and chips our hypothetical rider ate I doubt weight loss is a problem except loose change from the pocket! I just heard the café owner has put in for a second yacht.

I realise that this answer doesnt give much detail and specifics but i hope people can bounce some more specific ideas off this and please feel free to pass on some specific diets and foods
cheers
John

by Arthur Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:19 pm
John: calorie requirements.

For comparison, here are some measured energy needs (from a powermeter) from some long rides:

Tan Hill 2006, 8 hr 39 riding, 10:57 total, 228km 4843 kJ 156 W average
Etape du Dales 2007, 6 hr 46 riding, 6hr 53 total , 176km, 4296 kJ 176 W average

Edit Forgot to say. This is @69kg, which is probably why your 13 stone example is higher.

by JohnGray Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:26 am
Hi Arthur
You are right in stating the debate is out on caffeine and as I said the problem is I have no idea how much people were drinking, how much they drank a day (I have no idea, I will be honest, as to how much you need a drink to 'immunise' the body to be habituated) etc so I have taken an average approach and suggested a possibility of diuretic effect to cover any problems people may have experienced. And admittedly the figures I have for caffeine content in tea are about 60-70mg whilst coffee is 60-100mg so I took a data smoothing liberty of in this case lumping them together. But it is a great point to make as it highlights some of the interesting ambiguities in sports science and the 'concerns' I often have about the internet providing information on these debates. Unfortunately I can only comment on the Armstrong paper as the other provides no references but only the rather mysterious "we know" and "experts say" phrases.

The first point to consider is the use of language in the studies on the net. First of all, the Armstrong title says no increase in dehydration yet he states that the study is on chronic dehydration. This is, arguably, a significant difference in perspective. In his own recommendations he states moderation and one to two caffeinated products a day my not have a negative effect but beyond this he cannot conclude and therefore he calls for further research. This would suggest that the title Armstrong's Study Shows Caffeine Does Not Increase Dehydration is misleading as it is arguably more accurate to state Armstrong Suggests 'Low'/ Moderate Caffeine Does Not Increase Dehydration.

Also the Armstrong 'study' from what I have read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... t=Citation
is not an actual 'experiment' undertaken by him but appears to be a review of 10 other studies. The problem with this is that we do not know whether all the other studies used comparable exercise intensities, level of trained subjects, testing protocols etc. For example he uses the term recreational exercisers - at what level of intensity is this and how comparable is it to riders who do 160 miles in 9 hours on a sunny day? Where does the definition change from recreational to serious trainer? I dont know if, in these studies reviewed by Armstrong, the subjects trained to 'failure' or were members of an aerobics class but he does admit that anomalies have been observed in athletes however these may not be appropriate conclusions to the 'average person'. I personally hold the position that anybody who is purposefully training/competing on a planned regular basis at the limits of their physiology and intends to increase these limits could be classed as 'elite' or 'performance' in terms of their approach and objectives. I will try to find out but we dont hold that journal so it may take a little time.

Plus in his own abstract Armstrong states that the caffiene dosage in each study he statistically compared ranged from 100-680mg, that is a considerable difference in loading. If, as the other website linked states, 300mg is seen as a moderate dose, studies using 100mg are, IMHO, unlikely to provide enough stimulant to cause a significant effect in people who already take caffeine regularly and are the effects at 100mg truly comparable to those at 680mg? In fact, that difference is roughly between someone drinking one can of red bull and someone drinking seven.

The other question i have is over the quote which states: While there have been several studies done that show caffeine is a mild diuretic, there is no evidence that exercise, when combined with the consumption of caffeine or caffeinated beverages, will result in chronic dehydration, What is being defined as chronic dehydration in this statement? Previous research suggests that a loss of 1% total body fluid can lead to a significant deacrease in aerobic performance but I dont know if this would be classed as chronic dehydration. The key is if the caffeine does cause a diuretic effect there is a need, as I suggested, to replace that fluid loss and it is often best to counteract the caffeine drinks when totalling your fluid intake.

I think, as you rightly say, if you are habituated to caffeine then there may possibly be minimal diuretic effect, however, personally, if i were doing a 9 hour ride at 'pace' on a sunny day I would still avoid the caffeine drinks for 'safetys' sake so to speak.

The other point to remember is that caffiene can be metabolised very quickly and so although I havent read any specific research on this (I will look now that the thought is in my head) I have seen footballers 'crash' after drinking a can of red bull before a game. They start off fine and then complain of tiredness or lack of energy at half time. Admittedly this could be due to a number of factors, working for Grimsby Town FC for one, and it is in no way scientific but it always seemed to happen to lads who tried to perk themselves up with such stuff before a game. True there may have been a sugar rush but again this could be comparable to a similar effect from coke. As I said I have no scientific research on this one as yet but if anyone has thoughts please shout.

At present all the exercise physiology textbooks (e.g. McArdle et al 2007) still maintain the diuretic 'warning' on caffeine so in the end I believe it is your shout as to whether to use caffeinated drinks. My point would be that if you feel you are not getting the most from your training or performance consider trying something else.
cheers
John

by Arthur Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:31 pm
John - many thanks for that detailed reply. Much for me to think about there.

by Rob Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:37 pm
Thanks John for some great stuff above.

For what its worth I reckon your assumptions are all reasonable. Although to be fair to my comrades, the bad stuff was what I ate, the good stuff was everyone else.... that cheesecake was fantastic - you could abseil from it!

Who'd of thought the need to go on a diet after a 160 mile ride!

Glad the diet coke made you laugh! Its true though, but for me I prefer the taste and you don't get that yukky film all over your teeth.

The rehydration in the cafe wasn't the tea/coffee listed but a steady stream to and from the tap with our biddons.

You'll have to ride with us next time?!

by like my bike Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:04 pm
According to my data from POLAR 720i the ride 7000kcals @ 73kg

Breakfast - porridge - fruit tea, fruit juice

ON THE BIKE / CAFE FOOD

2 x SIS Go Bars
4 x 750ml water
2 x 750ml PSP 22 15%
1 x Jacket with tuna
2 x coffee
200g dried fruit rasins
2 x diets coke
1 x tea cake (no butter)

Oh and I always have a bowl of museli or portridge before I go to bed the night before a big ride

A J

by JohnGray Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:38 pm
Thanks for sending the diet in.
My apologies but I am away camping in France for the next 10 days but I will analyse this when I get back and let you know as close as we can as to exactly what you ate.

As for Robs offer to have a go next ride, I would love to but I dont think my mountain bike would be up to it. Plus if anyone was passing down the A59 on Tuesday night and spotted a lonely walker pushing his bike from Poppleton to Nun Monkton with a flat tyre, you can testify I have a puncture to boot at the moment!

by MarkA Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:02 am
According to my data from POLAR 720i the ride 7000kcals @ 73kg


Did you record the figures for yesterdays Tan Hill?
And what you consumed??

by like my bike Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:05 pm
Mark

Yes, will post ride data Wednesday.

210km on the following

Porridge & Fruit Juice, Coffee (Breakfast)

2 x 750ml water bottles
2 x 750ml water & PSP 22 @ 20%
2 x GO bars
200g of currents
100 Jelly Babys
2 x banana's

Cafe stop

1 x Jacket with Tuna + salad
1 x pot of earl grey

One obseravtion we had a lot of pee stops, I think this was down to the cold/cool weather and no much sweating. John any comments.

A J

by stevesavage Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:08 pm
Here are my stats from yesterdays ride:

132 miles in 7hrs 38mins Energy 4,639 KJ Av Watts 169
plus 14 miles to start/back.

Breakfast - Porridge, banana, tea
On bike - Banana, 6 fig rolls, 2 chunks malt-loaf/marg, 1 cereal bar, 1 fudge bar, 1 licorice stick.
At cafe - Jacket potato/cheese, Rhubarb crumble/custard.
Drinks - 2.5 bottles energy drink, tea, apple juice.

For my longest ride of the year I felt strangely fine and never in danger of bonking.
Question - how do you convert Kilo Joules to calories?

by Dave B Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:48 pm
[quote="stevesavage"]Question - how do you convert Kilo Joules to calories?[/quote]

Google dug this up, which looks useful;

http://www.unit-conversion.info/energy.html

Hope it's of help.

Dave B

by stevesavage Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:21 pm
Thanks Dave

So 4639 KJ equals 1108 calories. This doesn't seem right to me??

by PhilBixby Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:55 pm
I got the same conversion at a couple of sites online. Does this simply flag up the difference between the work done in moving you forwards on the road, and the overall work your body does shunting limbs, lungs and other necessary bits around during the same period? Given the usual "rules of thumb" about calories per hour, that would suggest about 20-25% efficiency? Blimey!

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