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by PhilBixby Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:54 pm
Hi John! Since you're propped up there with nowt to do, it seems a shame to waste the opportunity; every blister has a silver lining and all that.

Question is about heart rate in relation to overall levels of effort. I've been using a Garmin Edge all year, measuring and recording HR during training sessions and races (and using Joe Friel's [i]Cyclist's Training Bible [/i]as a training structure). It's been very useful during training as a way of setting targets for training sessions (on the road or the turbo) and keeping to them - be it HR zone, cadence or whatever. Getting a line on a graph is a good motivator (sad git that I am) - you can't kid yourself about what you actually did.

So... ...during the training period the HR info seemed pretty easy to interpret. I worked out my LT and used it as a basis for HR zones and intervals. As the spring wore on and I re-tested it, it crept upwards as would be expected (from about 169 to about 175) and this seemed right - above this was painful, below it was maintainable for 20 mins or so. Self-employment meant I could train in a pretty structured way - a couple of days training, a day rest, repeat etc - so I was never really training hard when knackered.

The bit that interests me is relating the info I get during races to this, as during the race season my level of freshness and fatigue varies much more dpending on what's on - it's harder to plan. During some events I'll get a graph which looks as I'd expect; short sessions up above LT during climbs or chases, much of the race at about 20bpm below threshold, and recovery periods well below that when I get the chance to sit in. But in others - despite feeling that I couldn't go much harder, even the bits where I remember working hard will be well below LT, and the big efforts on climbs will be barely nudging it.

So; question one:- Should I be giving myself a good arse-kicking for not trying hard enough on these ones, or is it simply evidence that I'm sometimes not well-enough-recovered? Or do other factors contribute - for example I've learned I go much better in the hot than I do in the cold?

Question two is that I've noticed towards the end of races my HR falls - and particularly the "peaks" of efforts are lower, despite feeling harder. Is this because fatigue makes it physically harder to get HR up, or is it all in my head - because my legs hurt I don't try as hard?

Any thoughts gratefully received!

Thanks
Phil B

by JohnGray Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:08 pm
there is nothing like being dosed up on anti-biotics and then getting the hard questions first!

I guess my first way of approaching these questions, and I know it is the wrong way, is to pose a question back and ask in what way do you feel you are working hard but your heart rate is not getting high? sometimes these can be quite subjective problems and due to the nature of cycling i would ask you to consider these questions in terms of speed. When you say you feel like you are working hard but the heart rate isnt getting high are you able to achieve the speeds you desire or is it case of thats why it feels hard because you are going slow?

You are right to think a number of factors maybe involved. If you are not recovered your heart rate tends to be higher at rest. Therefore it may be good to monitor your resting heart rate. I know that many people advocate taking your heart rate when you first wake up in the morning and keeping a check on how it fluctuates.
Plus of course you havent mentioned nutrition. what do you take on board before and during a race? is it different to during training? certainly this may have an effect on your observations in the second question. But i would also ask do you find yourself slowing down or speeding up towards the end of a race?
this is, IMHO, some of the problems with using heart rate. It can be a great tool for monitoring fitness and training, especially resting heart rate etc for over-training, but on a race day how do you use it to equate to speed?
i realise i have probably not answered a single question there! :D however please get back to me with some more thoughts on what i have said and we can explore your observations further. When i get back to walking again i will obviously pass these questions on to the lab lads and see what ideas they have too
thanks for getting touch and enjoy (the damp) summer we are having
John

by PhilBixby Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:47 pm
Hi John, and thanks for the (drug-assisted) response!

Okay.. answering the first question first; thinking about it, I'd say my perception of effort is to do with breathing. If I'm breathing as fast and hard as I can, then I feel like I'm working as hard as I can. I'm not too sure about speeds, as pretty much all my racing this year has been road racing rather than TTs, so speed will vary. Certainly the couple of occasions this year (only a couple - woooohooo - MUCH better than last year!) when I've been seriously dropped in races, or conked before clawing up to a break, I've not been going that quick. It just *felt* like I was absolutely on the limit and had been for a while, although - as I've said - the HR info afterwards showed I was well below LT, let alone maxHR.

I've not got into checking resting HR yet; I'm usually vaguely aware of when I'm fatigued and/or when my immune system has kicked in and nudged my HR up. Nutrition-wise, during both racing and training I use a bottle of Torq energy drink per hour (or one during warm-up, one during short race, two during long race - in other words, same sort of stuff). I carb-load before races (a couple of days' worth of lots of organic porridge; worryingly I'm getting to quite like the stuff) and I'll also pour the stuff in if I'm training heavily. I also use recovery drinks after races or interval training sessions - REGO plus added ribose. At first glance the nutrition looks pretty consistant.

Answering your question about latter parts of races, I suppose *generally* I feel quicker towards the end of races (unless they're really above my ability level, or I cramp up - an early-season problem) or it's so cold/wet/miserable that I never feel like I'm up to temperature, in which case I feel like I gradually grind to a halt. I *usually* arrive at the end of races with a fair bit left in my legs, but am usually saved from success in sprints by my poor tactical sense, apparent inability to think when within 1km of a chequered flag, and my dislike of being leant upon by other riders. I'm a truly crap time-triallist, which lends weight to the suggestion that I'm poor at getting the effort out of me; that it's a head, rather than leg, thing.

On your last question - what do I use HR for during races? I suppose I don't really use it during the race, I'm just interested to see the download afterwards and see what it tells me. The common trend when comparing HR during races and HR during training is this:- During races I often don't get my HR up to the levels I do during interval training, but the fluctuation of pace means that HR rises and falls lots more, and I get no choice about when.

If I'm honest, I suspect the answer to all of this is that I need to kick myself into working harder in races, and convince myself that the tendency for HR to be low means I've got some spare capacity that I should use - take some chances in breaks and see what happens. If I conk, I conk; if I don't try, we could still be having this discussion long after your blister's healed!

Thanks again, and any further thoughts greatly appreciated. Get up and walking before I start emailing ya me HR graphs!

Phil B

by Arthur Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:54 pm
Or buy a power meter :) Expensive, but it does solve this problem totally. If you could produce 300W for 10 minutes in training but can't in a race, then that's telling you something.

by PhilBixby Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:32 am
I've got it sort of pencilled into my cashflows for the year after next :wink: - meantime I reckon I've still got plenty to learn about addressing my weaknesses using the current tools. Out of interest though, what *would* that situation tell me? I'm guessing it would be more useful than "if I can work in HR zone 5a for ten minutes in training but not in a race", but in what way?

by JohnGray Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:57 am
Hi Phil

thanks for getting back with more details and keeping me away from daft house buying programs on daytime tv. I find it amazing that the telly flashes on programs for buying million pound houses and luxurious locations at a time when the only people who can afford them are at work. Why is it never someone buying a two-up two-down on the Grimsby Nunsthorpe estate?

I noticed that you have used the term conking and I have always understood that to mean trying to shift up the pedal rate/power and not finding the leg strength therefore I am assuming for the moment that is what you mean. I will obviously pass these observations on to Ian and Andreas when I catch up with them next week but to me there are a couple of reasons why this happens. The first is lack of energy in the muscle which could be due to either insufficient nutrition (but you seem fine with that one, though the addiction to organic porridge is worrying) or that you have gone off faster than normal in the early stages so to speak. Therefore lactic acid has accumulated.

The only ways around these factors are to train for such experiences through such ideas as interval and fartlek training approaches, i.e. mixing high and slower tempo changes. But I imagine you already do that however if you want me to have a glance at any training program give me a shout and there is also the question as to how confident you are in the accuracy of your training HRs for such sessions. I would also recommend some structured cycle specific weight training to include squats, leg presses and resistance cycling if you arent already doing so. This would certainly tie in with Arthur's great suggestion for a power meter.

The second reason for conking, and you do insinuate this, is due to a motivational factor. I noticed that you said that when not clawing back to the break or being dropped you felt you were working your hardest. You also mention that you grind to a halt if you dont feel up to temperature and that you seem to dislike the last 1km sprints of a race due to a couple of things. These things can certainly become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you are at the back and working hard but think you cant work hard enough to get to the front then that is what will happen. We hate proving ourselves wrong! Therefore you need to change your approach to such thinking.

first of all you might want to practice your training for these experiences. Get a few of the lads to simulate sprint endings so that you can develop this tactical sense and learn to 'enjoy' being in a crowded group flying for the line. I bet you just said you can never enjoy them! One 'trick' is the use of imagery. If you see yourself vulnerable as you sprint then you will act that way but if you can see yourself as the big powerful one everyone else needs to avoid then you will act that way. Either way you will prove yourself right. I know it sounds somewhat flippant of me to say just think this way or that but it is very powerful. Next time you are riding say to yourself the words weak or soft as you go to accelerate then have a go at saying strong or drive and notice the difference. I havent got one together but I will have a go at developing an imagery script and post it on here. Imagery scripts are done at home and help create the mindset for the race. It wont be perfect straight off but with your help I can certainly tailor it over time to something specific to yourself and anyone else reading these.

Certainly though for the minute my advice would be to practice and simulate those experiences you are having trouble with. This will help from both a physiological and motivational perspective.

Hope these ideas are helping stimulate the grey matter unlike the day time tv is to mine!
catch you soon
John

by Arthur Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:04 am
PhilBixby wrote:Out of interest though, what *would* that situation tell me?


If you could do 300W for a reasonable period earlier in the race, it's telling you that your endurance is lacking (ie you are fatiguted at the end of the race). If you can't do it all, either in training or racing, then you'd need to do intervals to increase the power you can produce, and if you can produce it in training but can't in the race then you are either tired, sick or can't be arsed.

by Rob Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:01 pm
Phil,

Your observations are horribly familiar. I think John's comments are really useful. I always put it down to simple fatigue, being just a simple guy.

I never used a HRM in a RR, but would usually strap one on in a TT. In normal TTs things would be fairly predictable. In a 10mile for instance (against a max of 186) I could hold 180 (horrible) if I had judged the taper correctly. If it was my 4th race of the week then no matter how hard I pummelled myself I would be stuck down in the low 160s. Like I say I assumed "fatigue" maybe with hindsight it could have been nutrition.

In an endurance event (100miles/12 hours / 24 hours) things got very complicated. Either the HR (and speed) would steadily decay as I got tired. Or I'd set off slower and hold a constant speed (and HR) but the perceived effort to hold it there increased until I was sobbing over the bars (YCF 100, July 96....shudder).

The RR data is always much harder to interpret as you must ride at *somebody elses* speed and there are soooo many variables.

Rob

by PhilBixby Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:48 pm
Arthur:- "..you are either tired, sick or can't be arsed." = wonderfully concise! And, I suspect, not far wrong - more on this to follow. I don't think it's an endurance problem; as an example at the Donny Wheelers RR last w/end, both average and maxHR were pretty constant for each of the 22 laps, despite me subjectively feeling absolutely shagged at the end. I think it's the "can't be arsed" factor..

Rob:- I think you're right - in part - about fatigue. I've said since I started racing that I reckon at the age of 48 I recover less quickly than younger riders, however I then fail to listen to what I say! Some of the races where I don't seem to be able to push myself hard are ones where I've had another race a couple of days previously, or major work/family related stress. I should probably think more about the lead-up to races and allowing proper recovery from what's gone before. However, in addition..

..John:- I think you're spot-on with the comments on psychology and imagery. We very rarely get the chance to practice sprinting in training - and certainly not in a bunch. Consequently I always find it unnerving. Plus in many 3rd/4th cat races it IS b****y dangerous! Likewise, attacking requires you to believe you can survive off the front of a race - as a self-confessed crap time-trialist I'm always MUCH happier looking for a break to follow. There ya go - the self-fulfilling prophesies you mentioned. So, I'm clear on areas to work on for late season / next year, plus I'd be very interested in your suggestions for imagery scripts. As my partner will confirm, the contents of my head are a complex place, and one of the things that fascinates (and frustrates) me about cycle racing is the chance to explore all this.

Thanks for the feedback - this is a useful additional forum (well, for me anyway!). I hope you're keeping your head above the daytime TV. You should try the organic porridge y'know... ...if you have enough of it you kinda drift off on an oat high.... :wink:

by MichaelCarter Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:48 am
John, thankyou for your words of advice already posted in here and thanks in advance for any help you could give to my specific enquiry. I do take on board advice (I'm currently sat here eating wholemeal pasta with a pint of water next to me!).

My specific enquiry is about determining Lactate Threshold Heart Rate. Friel bases everything on this and I'm concerned I've got mine wrong. I know the 220-age for maximum rate is generally incredibly inaccurate, but using that as a starting point, at 35 and in my first year of racing my max would be 185.

The basic test Friel suggests to find LTHR is to clock average HR for a 10 mile TT. I read that LTHR in very fit people (of which I am not!) is 85-90% of max. I found my heart rate average for 10 mile TTs at the start of the season was 180 and by the end of the season was about 184.

Granted I was (particular in the last one) really pushing myself, but I don't want to decide from the above that my LTHR is say 182 which to me seems too high and then I'd have all my training zones wrong!

Cheers

Michael
by JohnGray Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:17 pm
Hi Michael
thanks for the question and it is an important one to get the most out of your training. Though the pasta & water diet is a vital step in the right direction!
My own understanding of lactate threshold estimation for cycling is again from good old Friel. I use this table presented in the book "Precision Heart Rate Training" (Human Kinetics) and I quote
Distance of Trial Done as Race Done as Workout
5K 1.10 1.04
10K 1.07 1.02
8-10 mi. 1.05 1.01
40K 1.00 0.97

what you do is look at the distance of the time trial you rode and divide your average heart rate by the figure in the appropriate column. It is obviously best to do a couple trials if you want more accuracy as you go.
the reason this is seen as more accurate than 220-age is due to variablity of individual fitness and the time trial is considered an all out effort so 182 may not be far out for yourself, especially as you say you were really pushing yourself. So that should give a good indication of effort.
If i spot any other ideas, I am sat here with years and years of back issues of peak performance so I should stop being lazy and organise them, I will let you know immediately.
hope the riding is going well and please feel free to give me a shout
John

by JohnGray Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:18 pm
ah i see my attempts at a table from friel went pear shaped there. If it is a problem working the columns out give me a shout and I can easily email them over
cheers
John "IT is not my thing" Gray

by MichaelCarter Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:58 pm
I see now!! From what you say I can see I wasn't dividing by the relevant ratio.

Applying this brought my LTHR down to 174 which seems to make much more sense compared to my perceived effort levels and fatigue logged in my training diary.

Much appreciated (particularly as I can ease off the training ride intensity and not feel like I'm slacking now!)

Michael

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