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by PhilBixby Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:47 am
Forecast is for ongoing sunshine through to Saturday, so after last week's "proper" ride Out West let's have another crack at some fast laps, so at least you can top up yer tan even if the scenery isn't up to much. I know everyone rolls their eyes about Bishopwood being Bor-ring (teenage sigh) but it's safe, nice wide roads and gets the job done. Two or three groups to suit numbers, 9am from the square. :)
by PhilBixby Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:40 pm
Plenty of people managed to tear themselves away from the traditional bank holiday "let's drive into town and listen to screaming kids" routine and turn up in the square, although as we discovered when we hit the stationary traffic on Fulford Road on the way back, plenty of others clearly didn't! Six(?) off in Cam's brisker group and eleven(?) in the steadier group - which nearly became nine when a misunderstanding about the route out of town put two of us on a collision course on Skeldergate Bridge...

A swift ride out followed by the traditional pee and verbal romp through the essentials and then off - six laps with most of us still there at the end albeit a couple of us sat on the back! 240W and just under 24mph for the one hour twenty of serious stuff - a very even pace and nice tight riding. Thanks folks!
by AndyM Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:57 pm
7 left The Square in the front group, and made swift progress out to Bishopwood thanks to the lovely tailwind. A quick watering of plants and away we went for 6 laps of the famous circuit.

Group was fantastically smooth rolling through and a real pleasure to ride in. We dropped a couple along the way to leave 5 of us for the last lap and a bit. We drove the pace up a little on the last lap as you'd expect, but overall the power was 20W higher today (and smoother) than in the final 50 mins of the Hull Thursday race last Sunday.

For anyone who likes lots and lots of numbers, scores on the doors are:
Lap 1: 13mins 15 secs, 24.2mph, 300W,
Lap 2: 13mins 03 secs, 24.6mph, 305W,
Lap 3: 13mins 15 secs, 24.2mph, 307W,
Lap 4: 13mins 21 secs, 24.1mph, 303W,
Lap 5: 13mins 05 secs, 24.6mph, 296W,
Lap 6: 12mins 37 secs, 25.4mph, 361W.

And the important bit - Cam won the sprint :twisted:
Great to be back out on a Saturday ride, and everyone looked really strong. Added on an extra few miles on my way home to round it up to about 4 hours 40 mins, and 93 miles :) Cheers folks :)
by Dr Dave Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:12 pm
Impressive stats!
Note that Phil's 240 watts was almost as quick as Andy's 300. Either Phil was soft-tapping at the back or Andy was taking big turns (or someone has a calibration issue ;-) )
Either way it shows us mere mortals the level you guys are riding at. Chapeau :D

Keep pedalling!
by Cam B Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:45 am
Dr Dave wrote:Andy was taking big turns


Well ....he's not called Andy "Motorbike" Myers for nothing :) I must admit I looked at those stats (Phil's vs. Andy's) and thought there was a "calibration issue" somewhere. Whlst I completely buy into using watts as a training aid I don't have the kit for this and just use a cheapish device which tells me how fast I'm travelling, etc....I got 24.2 average for the laps which I thought was about right but then again it's all I use. I guess there's some a satisfaction to be drawn from Andy's comments about the power being a bit higher on Sat. than in the final 50 mins of the race he did previous the w/e. If we assume his device is not calibrated correctly then I hope it's consistent. It's a bit like weighing yourself on a set a scales you think may be dodgy. Best to stick with them than get a new one.
by JohnS Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:11 am
I put it down to different sized groups! We had initially 7 which soon dropped to 6. Phil's group was (almost!) double. By the time we did the last lap we were down to 3 working.

Otherwise you can put the difference down to Phil's new Cervelo! That's go to be worth 40 watts.

Good mornings session and I did enjoy it although my legs were complaining for the full 6 laps. Thanks for the company guys.

John
by AndyM Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:24 pm
No calibration issue here folks ;) The numbers are very different, but power numbers can be affected by so many variables. The most important thing with a power meter is that numbers are repeatable from day to day, ride to ride, with a single unit, but different characteristics of the rider will also have a big effect.

The biggest difference here I think was the size of the group as John mentioned. Phil's group was about twice as big, meaning each rider in the group only has to do about half the number of turns on the front, assuming of course that half the group wasn't just sitting on the back. When sitting in the wheels waiting for your turn to come around you're putting out anything from 90% of the power it takes on the front to as little as 50% or even just free-wheeling, so a group size will make a big different to the effort of each rider.

Other factors that would affect power between two different riders is weight, if it was a hilly ride (it wasn't :P ) and also aerodynamics of the rider will play big part too.

Anyone who's cycled behind 6ft 3inch me will know I punch a nice big hole in the air, which means more power for any given speed on the flat. As an example, putting a baggy rain cape on can cost you as much as 50W or even more at the 24mph we were riding at, so a bigger rider who's less aerodynamic has to put out bigger numbers. Aero bikes and aero wheels also play a role - manufacturers claim anything up to 30W savings for an aero frame and wheelset combo at these speeds, but you can't believe everything a manufacturer's R&D department tell you.

Tried to resist the urge to get too geeky here, but may have failed :lol: but it shows there is a big story behind just one number.
by nigelt Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:19 pm
Please can I ride behind you next time Andy? Liam and Nick in racing snake mode give me about as much shelter as a clothes line!

No idea what power I was putting out (never enough though) but it made my legs hurt and I enjoyed it. Great group riding, smooth turns and good Craic on the way back. Looking forward to Saturday...
by PhilBixby Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:39 am
As Andy says - no calibration issue. I'm a pretty compact five foot eight-ish and as anyone who's followed me will know, I make a pretty small hole in the wind when down on the drops. On the flat it's all about aerodynamics, plus after ten years of racing I'm happy sitting six inches from the wheel in front whenever possible. I was taking my turns on all bar the last lap, and the power output for that one was the same as the rest anyway, thus proving that messing around off the back doesn't do you that much good! The other point to note is that small increases in speed need a lot more power once you're doing twenty-odd - which is why a TdF break banging out 400-450W will still not be going quite so much faster as you'd think.

Edit:- Actually Dr Dave's popped the lid off an interesting can here. My current threshold power (ie what I could do for an hour or so) is around 250W and I'm pretty near the bottom end of what's needed to be vaguely competitive in 3rds/4ths or vets races - I get away with it through having a reasonable sprint so I don't get dropped by changes of pace, and being pretty good at riding very economically in the bunch when required. Andy's threshold is around 100W up on mine (and a few of the other "brisker" group regulars will be too), which is what's needed for getting in breaks in 2/3/4 races, or for towing the bunch along. While I can compensate for some of that on the flat, it all comes home to roost on hilly circuits where the massive gap in power/weight ratio means that unless I'm much, much better than most at surviving hill-length bouts above threshold (which I suspect is a Muzzy quality) then I'm out the back.

Have just read Hutchinson's latest ("Faster") - pretty much essential reading for anyone interested in this stuff, and very, very funny. We are all, basically, quite mad. Further Edit:- Although some madder than others....
by Cam B Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:07 pm
Have read Hutchinson's book as well and would recommend it. At the risk of this turning into 'bookworm corner'... There's a bit in Mat Rendall's book "A significant Other" were he cites a case of a rider who rode a 6 hour TdF stage at an ave. speed of 40k per hour and an unbelievable ave. power output of only 98 watts! Rendall conceded that this required "... great concentration, bike handling and drafting skills..." So I think the message is...you may think you have maxed out in term of how many watts you can produce but you can still do ok if you're canny enough....There's hope for everyone :D
by timj Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:45 pm
If a person weighs 90 kilos and has a ftp of 300 watts and a person weighs60 kills with ftp of 230watts which rider is the stronger?!! Now i am getting geekyy .!
by Dr Dave Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:18 pm
timj wrote:If a person weighs 90 kilos and has a ftp of 300 watts and a person weighs60 kills with ftp of 230watts which rider is the stronger?!! Now i am getting geekyy .!


In a flat TT the 90Kg rider, on a climb the 60Kg one. In a bunch race the one who conserves energy best. :D
Last edited by Dr Dave on Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Keep pedalling!
by DamianE Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:21 pm
Hi Tim, I'm no expert but the lighter guy has a higher watts per kilo so he's the favourite on that measure. But outside of these numbers I think there's something to be said for technique of riding in a bunch looking after yourself. And also I suspect whatever your FTP if you can't knock out 350 watts for a while you're going to get dropped when it gets really tough somewhere.

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