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I'm kicking this off in a separate thread - partly because it's interesting stuff that merits discussion and partly because I don't want it to come across as critical of anyone - and especially not Jess, who I think deserves thanks for taking on leading a ride and hence setting herself up to be shot at!

What follows is my thinking on it - I may be wrong, but the basis comes from many very experienced coaches via a whole heap of reading (done when I doubtless should be getting out more, I know).

Okay: my thinking is that we all have limited time, and especially at this time of year we have limited time when it's (i) not dark and (ii) not icy. So.. ..my suggestion is to get as many hours as possible in doing steady effort out on the roads - Saturday mornings being 3hrs+ of this. Three points which come straight out of this:-

- Steady effort will mean different things to different people, but this can be easily evened out by varying turns on the front. A strong rider does a couple of minutes, a weaker rider does ten seconds and then pulls through to the left. That's all it takes - on the front you're working about 60-70% harder than when following a wheel if you keep the pace about the same - believe me, I watch the numbers on the little red box. Everyone can get a proper workout without the need for any drama.
- A three-hour ride is really only a three-hour ride if you're working well in that last hour rather than being knackered and limping home. Ninety minutes at race pace (in November) followed by ninety minutes hanging on to the back is basically a ninety minute ride. The same applies to all training - you want the last bit to be the best bit, so you want a steady pace that gently picks up just a bit, making that final hour a really valuable chunk of work.
- I agree that it's good to do some harder stuff at this time of year (forgive me, Joe Friel) as long as it's still sub-threshold. But why not do it another day? Those evenings when you "can't train because it's dark"? Do harder, shorter stuff on the turbo or find a nice, lit, safe circuit you can hammer round. Why do it on a Saturday morning when you can use that time for something you can't do any other time?

Training for road racing's very much about the long game - the blokes (and lasses) who go fastest in April sure as hell aren't the ones going fastest in November. Patience is required - those steady miles are about building a base fitness which then enables you to pour on intense stuff and get results. To quote coach Tony Williams, you have to go slower to go faster. How Zen is that, eh?

I think that anyone who sticks their hand up and leads any of the rides deserves credit and thanks. It is hard to please everyone. I certainly look on the Sat. Training ride as being my long steady ride of the week. If I have time, like I did on Saturday, I can add an hour or two on the beginning or end of it (all miles in the bank!). I do a couple of other sessions in the week on the T***o which are a bit more intensive. I think the training ride should be a broad church in accomodating a range of abilities and if people want to "compete" in the Spring and Summner in road racing, triathlon or whatever, then I think it is broadly accepted that you do a fair amount of this steady low intensive steady stuff which then (hopefully) gives you the platform to do the quicker stuff come the Spring. However, if you are one of the stronger riders there are things that you can do even within a group ride to make it a little bit harder for yourself without committing the cardinal sins of "halfwheeling" or accelerating when you hit the front............You could take longer turns at the front; you could stay seated in the saddle when climbing a hill or you could stick it in higher gear for a spell (for muscular endurance!) all of which should not lose you any friends in the bunch! If you feel like you are one of the weaker riders there is no shame in doing shorter turns or missing turns altogether.

Very good posting from Phil and all totally spot on. More or less what Joe Friel advocates as he does suggest some slightly higher level work through the base fitness periods and certainly through the build periods. Time spent in the strength, speed, endurance sections vary through each periodisation block. On a group ride, really everyone should be aware and look after each other. You can still ride and everyone get a good workout with the suggestions given. Finally, you should not finish a ride completely on your knees anyway as it may hinder the ability to train in the next session and may result in a detraining or over training effect. High intensity is best saved for Turbo or specific race training sessions later. Not that I've had chance and opportunity for a group ride due to family commitments. Doing it with "Billy" on my way home. Anyone for child care sat mornings? Next saturday can't make it either, but hopefully get into the swing off things then. Still, I could hitch up my trailer and tow them for added strength training.

Yup, spot on, Phil. I haven't made it to the training ride yet for Fatsprinter-type childcare reasons too, but reading the reports it sounds faster than ideal for now. Hope to join in soon and happy to lead a group when I do (at a steady-to-brisk pace).

As a doctor didn't write "Every time you find yourself gasping on a 3hr ride, you are pushing your muscles into a phsyiological state which actually *inhibits* the aerobic adaptation you're hoping to get by riding for that long."

For the same reasons. I would recommend not attacking hills on long rides at this time of year (if you are preparing for a racing season).

The difference between a good group training ride and a bad one is about 2 mph on the climbs...Go as hard as you want on the flat, nobody is going to get dropped there, and preserve your ego by getting on the front into a block headwind... don't do it by sprinting up every little drag.

Having being dropped on the last 3 training rides I have been on, I have stayed away for a couple of weeks to ponder if its suitable for me....
However, after reading the above 'wise words' I thought that I would give it another shot this week.
As far as childcare goes - I just lock my two in the coal shed with a can of pop and their DS lite's...3hours could be 3mins or 3 days to them when they have they heads stuck in those things!!