Topic Title

Look, let's not degenerate the debate which is probably best had over a pint.

My point is that racing means different things to different people and I don't think you should just dis those discipline's you don't like. Like it or not Trailquesting, Downhilling, RAAM, 4X, Marathons, 24 hour events, TTs, CycloCross are all racing even if they don't sit comfortably with everyone. In all cases you are competing against others against the clock over the same course. Why can't people just accept that the sport has different things for different people and they're all equally valid? I'm sure athletics clubs don't have similar battles between the Marathon Runners and the Sprinters.

Gentlemen....... back to the original point, which if I recollect, was something about low racing numbers (racing being, grantedly, narrowly defined). Now, I'm very much sat on the outside, these days, of the racing group, but it does appear to be a question worth asking. Like Nick and others I do suspect there is an overlap with the issue of low aspiration/ambition.

I've long thought that it is one of the down-sides of being and "accessible" club. In order to encourage people in, we stress the grass-rootsness of it all and the have-a-go aspect....TLI/EOL/LVRC. It is by nature very hard to sell this picture on the one-hand and also the ambition to be #1 in Yorkshire.

To be clear - alternative approach of being an elitist 8 man team is not one I support at all. And to be clear even more - our club is currently fantastic - wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The question of what to do about it remains unanswered. Take your bike home and join a "more ambitious club" or get stuck in and "sort it out"?

Edit: just re-read this and that last line sounds harsh. I'm not specifically on any body's case. But it does need some leadership and commitment to see it through.

Aha, it's all kicking off...

I asked the retention question, because I suspected the answers would be a little like Andy and Nick's.

I *think* I'm with Rob on the bigger issue. I wouldn't want to sacrifice the ride-and-let-ride ethos of the club, which has brought it a plenty of active members. But I'd like to see more racing, and more support for those with ambition to shoot for the big time (in whatever racing discipline). However: I don't think it has to be either/or.

Tullio is right that the club is the members (or as Dr Dave might say: there's no such thing as society...); it's not the kind of place where the elected officials set the programme and you get on board or go elsewhere.

At the moment, the centre of gravity is definitely over at the sportive/cafe-run end on the road. I don't have a problem with that as such, but I do think that road racing success is very unlikely any time soon unless someone takes a lead and starts building a racing program. Phil's post seemed to me an invitation to start that process.

It just struck me that, if the club had plenty of success recently, it was worth asking where it went, as well as how we can get more people involved. Otherwise we risk building a staircase without a first floor.

If you look at the sportive side of the club, it has a critical mass which is self-supporting: if you turn up to a weekend ride, you will most likely be riding a longish trip with a bunch of folk, many of whom take part in audax/sportive rides, who can advise and encourage you to get to the level where you can join in, and also tell you what to do, where to go, how to prepare, and be there to ride with.

By contrast, unless you are able to get out of work by six and turn up to a summer chain gang, the racing part of the club is much less visible (accepted, guys like DaveC, IanH and Muzzy do show up for clubruns, but they are very much the minority). It's not an accident - as Arthur and others will confirm, if you're pressed for time, very long, keep-together clubruns just aren't good training.

Add to that the need to join (at some cost) a national body like BC, the intimidating air of 'racing', the pressure on road race events, with the consequent shortage of places and need to get entries in early, and you can see why racing is losing ground. I'm acutely aware that the way I got into racing - just turning up to my local TLI - isn't even possible now, as you have to pre-enter the series.

We are way below critical mass for road-racing, and it'll take a focused (that word) effort to get the club back into contention. It may be an old idea, but I think a post of racing captain with explicit responsibility to encourage road racing and *help to develop the racers* is the best way ahead.

The captain's job should be fourfold: recruitment (encouraging anyone to give racing a go), training (organising more race-focused training sessions), hand-holding (supporting novices to get them to the start line of their first events) but also development (the first floor: trying to build a season for the club, targetting events, encouraging people to move into bc races, regional A's, etc, even, heaven forbid, planning team tactics).
And none of this need be to the detriment of any other kind of riding or competition in the club.

As a green 4th cat racer I'd welcome this kind of support. I'm even keen enough to volunteer, but for two obvious problems: three small children and a wafer-thin racing CV. Give me a couple of years though and I reckon I might be ready.

I'd be interested to know from Andy and nickb if they think they would have been encouraged to stick with road racing and Clifton, if this sort of setup had existed.

At any rate, if we can get a regular race-worthy training session going in the new year and use it as a springboard for some of the other ideas, I think that would be a very positive start.

(And an aside to Andy: I was goaded into an attack in my first race, and I've been mounting them regularly ever since. All futile so far, but I'm not discouraged. We're not all soft-tapping goal-hangers.. )

Tom

Hi Tom
I joined clifton originally because of the mix of racers and the ammount turning up to events. I don't think it'll be like that in the near future. One of my best memories from racing on the road last year was a 2nd cat race with muzzy and rob (in his ss helly hanson after forgetting his jersey!) where we almost worked together. In the last couple of miles a said to Rob 'my legs are gone' he said 'no they're not,come on i'll get you to the front',and he did! I just sat on his wheel. I think i came 11th but anyway thats how it should be.

I'm new to the club and haven't raced before, but would certainly be interested in the Saturday training sessions that have been suggested. I've got a few issues I need to get sorted first, though:
1) I'm curently off the bike with knee trouble. Hopefully it'll clear up before too long.
2) I'm also currently trying to buy a house, I'm sure you all know how much time that can potentially take up.

Also, 3) I intend to ride Paris-Brest-Paris in 2011, and am also currently trying to organise a group to do York-Cambridge-York earlyish next summer (does anybody from here want to join that?) so I can't commit 100% to racing, as I'll be doing a fair number of weekends' audax. Is there any possibility I'll still be able to survive on the circuit?

Because I am an old newcomer to cycling I have been trying a bit of most things, club runs, TT's, Road racing, sportives and I even did a cyclo cross race recently with IanH (could do with a cx frame!).

I first did a road race last year after talking to Phil who assured me I could do it. That was at Bishopwood where I stuck with the groups until the last bridge when I lost the group due to a crash just near me (I'm not blaming you Tom!). But I got hooked on racing from that point. I didn't do any special training for that, but the main thing for me was just enjoying it.

This season I have done TLi and LVRC races and I have acheived one or two reasonable results and gained experience. Next season I will be at the bottom end of the age group so I will aim for better results. I did some specific training last winter for racing and the same this winter. I also like the club time trials for training.

Still look forward to the club runs though.

Dave

Messers,

I joined Clifton CC spring this year purely for racing. With work and family comitments, I only managed the B'Bridge TLI series, and loved every (almost) race. Next year I intend to race up to 10 BC races, and my over all cycling aim is to gain a 1st Cat. License.

Coming from a team sport background, I felt a distinct lack of "team spirit", this maybe because I work in Selby and finish work at 6.00, work weekends and so didnt do any training with other "clubmates".

So my suggestions:

1. Set up Clifton Race Team, yes elitist, but something to aspire to (you have to attend a certain number of Race Team training sessions untill you can be part of the race team)

1. b) How about different kit for race team? (subsidized by club as a reward for making the team?)

2. Race Team Capt (great idea Tom)

3.Structured and planned Mid-week training for Clifton Race Team to start at 7.00, not just a chain gang (possibly get the assistance of a coach?)

4. "Inter-club" points competition and league table visible to all on web-site

5. Instead of hammering ideas on here, all would-be Clifton Race Team members meet up in person for a real meeting/social.

The above may seem a little harsh to those not wanting to race, or more focused on the sociable rides, but if WE want OUR club to be topping race results, we cant be softies. And for those who do feel this is a bit harsh, surely you would take pride in seeing your "Race Team" winning races?

Interesting suggestions, Rich. You're right that there wasn't a lot of "team spirit" around - mainly because numbers were so small. Muzzy and I were sole Clifton riders in many of the BC/LVRC races we did, and even in the TLI's it often wasn't clear who was showing up to each event until we all assembled on the line.

Personally I'm not wild about the separate race team - two reasons:-

- This cropped up a couple of years back - Cycle Heaven approached us with proposals to effectively fund a team, and after very protracted discussion (I mean years, not weeks) we as a club turned it down because we didn't want an elitist set-up where some people benefited and others didn't. We said we wanted a club where people were encouraged to progress - and racing was one of those things to progress to - but didn't want thresholds which separated some riders from the rest. I'd probably go gaga if we revisited those discussions.

- My feeling is that what we need is an inclusive set-up. If we get people out on training rides, we can hopefully provide whatever encouragement and support it takes to get entries sent off, and then it's just a case of keeping people on board through those first few races when it's (maybe - maybe not) a bit of a shock to the system. We'll then have numbers and can start working on making it all more team-like - if that's what people want. Putting another "test" in the way - never mind That First Race - may just discourage the waverers - and we know we've probably got forty-odd waverers!

However... ...it would be great to hear other people's views. Come on folks - we've had less than a dozen viewpoints and all bar a couple of them did race this year!

I'd certainly be up for getting together - Brigantes one evening? With the BC, LVRC and TLI calendars becoming fairly clear, we can certainly take a look at the year ahead, work out what the race opportunities are and make sure everyone knows where the entry forms are...

'Elitist' is not where we want to be - I thought we were trying to convince newer riders that you don't have to be the next Bradley Wiggins/Nicole Cooke to put a number on your back and get stuck in?

It doesn't have to be road racing - time trialling, MTB...it's making that step up to riding an 'open' event and the best way to do it is in company - I remember, and if it hadn't been for other club members like Kevin (taking me round the course before my first event) or Claire (forging my signature on entry forms!) or going to my first RR with Paul then I probably would never have bothered.

'Elitist' is not where we want to be - I thought we were trying to convince newer riders that you don't have to be the next Bradley Wiggins/Nicole Cooke to put a number on your back and get stuck in?

I agree with the general feeling but would point out that if elitist means 'aspiring to excellence' then it's actually to be welcomed. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the next Wiggo/Nicole Cooke - role models inspire us - especially the young. If however elitist means aloof, arrogant, divisive etc then no it's not what's needed.

I also remember when the Sewell family moved from Leeds they came along to club events for a while but as there was no racing side to the club didn't become full regular members racing for the Clifton. I may be 100% wrong in this interpretation but feel that this might serve as an example of a lost opportunity related to relative lack of a road racing culture within the club at present.

On the other hand, a Race Team would be a 'club within a club' IMO. If a select goup wish to they can surely just form a new, separate club/team if that's what they want.

I'd have thought it would be more constructive to get a group going that could be self-supporting within the existing club structure and which would then draw on the wider club for participants - and new young potentially aspiring racers - people like James Mason (now seemingly lost, at least for the present), young Arthur, Will Hub etc

The idea of a racing Captain is a good one - if there is someone who wants to do it and is suited to the role..........

I'd certainly be up for getting together - Brigantes one evening? With the BC, LVRC and TLI calendars becoming fairly clear, we can certainly take a look at the year ahead, work out what the race opportunities are and make sure everyone knows where the entry forms are...

Any discussion over a few beers is surely to be welcomed!

Just to clear up - Yes DR Dave, I ment elitist as something to aspire to, and not to be arogant.

Also re. the Sewell family, I'm certainly not at Callums standard yet, but I've already been looking at other clubs that seem to be more focused on racing.

Cath: Everyone would be welcome to join the racing team, we could have a training session especialy for first year racers?

But what we really need to do is all meet up in person - nothing will come of ranting on forums!

I'm free Sunday evening?

wouldn't harm to meet up and have a proper chat about all this even if nothing major were to happen. if nothing else just to get a better idea of what people want/expect etc

Sunday 8pm, Brigantes?

I'm good for that. See you then.

I'm unlikely to be able to make it on Sun, but please keep me posted with any outcomes. I think that perhaps what we potential racers would benefit from (and what the Sat and Sun rides do so well) is a bit of camaraderie - hopefully a get-together on Sun will be the start of this.

Thanks for kicking this off in the first place Phil - I'm sure that some good will come of it.

Jason.