Clifton CC Discussion Board

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by like my bike Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:25 am
How do you keep at or around this level after targetted training? As you get fitter Threshold position will move. There was an article in CW were a rider was testing himself (blood tests) to threshold and adjusting target accordingly (seems extreme) or is it not that critical?

EG; 2x20 mins threshold sessions

Workrate measured by watts = 170bpm, average for interval 167bpm

after 3 weeks

Workrate measured by watts = 166bpm, average for interval 164bpm

Initial threshold heart rate after lab test 170bpm

Could you just move the rate up by 1or2 bpm every 3 weeks.

A J

by justsweat Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:51 am
I personally think that the bpm should be the same, but the power should move. Hopefully up.

What you are doing is getting the lactate cleared more efficently, therefore you should be able to push more wattage at the same HR. Otherwise you pushing at a higher wattage, but with a higher HR. Unless you are also monitoring the lactate you cannot tell whether you are only producing the same lactate at the higher HR or whether you are tolerating it better.

Brian

by PhilBixby Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:23 pm
I'd defer to Brian's expertise in this (but as it's a techie training question I'll pile in anyway....). In part I'd think it depends how you're measuring your performance - HRM or powermeter. I'd have thought even just using an HRM your "threshold" HR is likely to creep up a bit during the training programme, as you become more used to sustaining what is a fairly serious intensity. If you've got a powermeter then, as Brian says, as training progresses you should see higher wattage for the same HR (or even more wattage if you assume your HR will be up a bit). So you test once in a while (once a month or so?) and re-set your target.

Ultimately though threshold's threshold isn't it - it's the highest effort you can sustain for the session. I'm doing lots of 2x15's and wattage is gradually creeping up from the off-season dismal low; HR during the intervals is pretty much the same. Irrespective of the numbers though, if I finished a session and it felt easier than it should have, I'd know I'd not been at my threshold....

by Dr Dave Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:30 pm
Is it not also the case that lactate production is a progressive thing - the point about 'threshold' is that above this level the rate of lactate accumulation exceeds the rate of 'disposal/utilisation' - hence the level in muscle starts to soar. Below and above the threshold level lactate is still being produced so as long as you are in the ballpark you will still be improving your buffering and utilisation adaption mechanisms.

by tomf Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:47 pm
I reckon this is a pretty difficult question. As Dr D says, threshold is about an equilibrium between creation and dispersal of lactate. As your muscles adapt to aerobic training, they can support more aerobic work before onset of anaerobic (lactate-producing) metabolism. So your power output at threshold increases.

But that extra aerobic work requires oxygen, supplied by the blood - so more blood must be pumped per minute to meet the demand. Other things being equal, that means the heart must beat faster at the new, (more powerful) threshold level.

However, other things may not be equal. Your heart may be adapting by increasing stroke volume (especially if you mix harder sessions in with the long aerobic ones), and your body may produce more red blood cells so that each unit of blood can carry more oxygen. Either of these effects would *depress* the HR at any given power output.

I can't find any clear answer in online journals, but I strongly suspect that early on in typical 'winter' training (mostly lower intensity stuff), your threshold HR would rise. Quite possibly it would then start to fall if you changed the balance towards harder workours later on.

In practice I'd be happy if my heartrate at a given power level fell over time - but that's a slightly different question!

by justsweat Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:29 am
I still think that your HR hardly changes when doing lactate threshold work, if you are in exactly the same physical shape, ie, muscles with the same amount of carbs/hydration the same/temprature the same when doing the session.

However how often does that happen, hardly at all, therefore you will always find some minor, or sometime major HR movements because of the different factors. Example while we where in Portugal we trained using no carbohydrate drinks, just salt and electrolyte replacement tablets. By the 4th day getting my HR to LT never mind holding it there was a major task. Whereas in the first 3 days it would go up easily, then I could hold it for 30 minutes easily. So how well fueled you are effects everything else.

Brian

by like my bike Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:02 pm
OK - from the replies posted, Ive increased the target wattage by 5-10 watts. These sessions are done on the turbo trainer (Cateye Cyclesimulator awesome kit now discontinued) I try to minimised other variables. At the increased wattage its a tougher session (as you would expect) but do able.

Outline programme generally base work + 2x 1hrs 15min session including 2x20 at LT. Phil I reckon Im about a month behind you in my programme. My first race is 8 weeks away.

I have another question but need to be able to post polar graphs on here anyone know how?

A J

by PhilBixby Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:07 pm
Sounds about right Andy - my first races also about eight weeks off (probably the same races!) but first one I'm really targeting is a further four weeks on. So, I'm on final week of base training with a rest week coming up and then 8wks Build to follow. Weekly currently doing two endurance rides (an hour of sprint drills followed by two hours just below tempo pace), two sets of 2x15's and two sets of 5x4's on the turbo. Power just starting to regularly increase.

by Arthur Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:26 pm
To post a picture, upload it to somewhere that hosts images (e.g. Flickr, ImageShack) then link to it here using the "Img" button

by PhilBixby Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:05 am
Just scanning back over figures for my base training - just coming to an end now - supports Tom's theory. I've been doing one or two weekly 2x15's sessions on the turbo alongside the endurance stuff. Right at the start of base training I was putting out about 225W at a HR of around 168-169. A month later I was doing about 230-odd at the same heart rate. Recent sessions - and I've started doing vO2max intervals and sprints (the higher-intensity stuff that Tom mentions) - I'm putting out over 250W at a HR of about 163. It feels less physically stressed too - I just can't get power/HR any higher due to the fatigue of a big weekly training load. Will see what happens during the Build training and report back...

by tomf Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:35 pm
Cheers Phil - cheque's in the post! That's also more than a 10% power increase and a 5 beat drop in HR since the start, which must be pretty good value for effort.
tom

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