Clifton CC Discussion Board

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by Andy J Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:28 pm
Since we have some decent time trialists in the club I thought I would pick their brains.

Im after some workout ideas for developing power output at my lactate threshold.

Also I would be interrested in finding out how you guys pace yourselves.

Yesterday I rode the Yorkshire Velo 10 on the V212, I started out steady upto the turn and then wound it up on the way back, I seemed to pass 5/6 riders on the way back and didnt feel too knackered at the end. I suspct I should have gone quicker to begin with?

by justsweat Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:15 am
Andy,

It depends how scientific you want to be with all this. In other words, how do you do workouts at your lactic threshold, without knowing what your lactic threshold is, and should you be working at the first turn point or the second (see what I mean) and why would you want to do them at your lactic threshold, as this would maintain your steady state.

What I suspect most of us do (and I am not a great TT rider) is short efforts above our lactic threshold (much more VO2 max work and lactate buffering sessions) rather than ride at threshold for a long time.

So if you want to do precise lactic threshold sessions, you probably need testing (preferably in a lab, although there are some field tests that can estimate) and then use that data.

John Gray, might be able to set up some testing for people at York, at the end of the season?

Cheers

Brian

by Rob Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:25 am
Hi Andy,

Feel a bit uncomfortable offering advice to someone who's evidently a stronger rider than me and whose been doing all this for some time. BFWIW:

In 5 weeks time the road season will begin to wind down and in 10 weeks time will be over. Any changes you make to your training now will have limited impact this season. For me now its all about keeping fresh and motivated and getting the best payback for the training I've already done. Make changes for next season as Brian suggests.

You have too much talent to focus on *just* time trials - its just one esoteric branch of the sport.

The classic TT training is long intervals (8-10mins at full berries). It seams to do me good, but need to be well rested before hand and these days (I'm getting old) I can't handle this session if I'm racing twice in a week as well.

Pacing? I'd take your approach of starting cautiously and winding it up during the race for a long TT (2 hours plus), but a 10, again for me, is full on value for money. Need to be whimpering all the way. I'd suggest target pulse within 3 mins (but don't overshoot). But its grim and again I need to be well rested.

Hope this helps

R

by Arthur Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:41 pm
Buy a power meter, work out your threshold and then base intervals on that.

5 x 5 mins @ 113 - 155% threshold, 5 minutes recovered between intervals

That works on raising lactate tolerance/vo2 max (it's at the long end of intervals for either but worked for me)

Then to raise threshold, mix in

2 (or three if you are feeling strong) x 20 mins @ 95% threshold, short rest between the sets (3 mins).

The idea of doing these below threshold is to be near enough to raise threshold but not to go so hard that you can't recover quickly enough to do a decent volume over a week.

You can do the same things based on HR or perceived exertion. It's just easier with a power meter.

by justsweat Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:57 pm
I'm interested in how you worked out your lactate threshold with the powermeter. And how often you revisit it.

Being someone who does a lot of field testing in this area and has been tested pretty regulary on blood samples I think we may be blurring the diffence between lactate threshold, VO2 max and lactate tolerance.

The reason I ask is that when I've been tested from blood sampling, my 2 turnpoints don't change by more than a few heartbeats, even though the amount of power and the percieved effort for that power changes a great deal as I get fitter and stronger.

At the moment I'm also playing with the idea of using products when I test, as trying to work off a heart rate when I'm racing becomes increasingly difficult once I add in caffiene and adreneline, if I've not tested under the same sort of conditions, I am then guessing what HR should be.

I think for a 10, this is not a problem, to paraphrase Rob 'you start hard and then go harder', therefore HR becomes redundant. After that you probably need to be riding off HR/percevied effort/power, but only testing or vast experience can help you with them.

by Arthur Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:02 pm
I work from the andy coggan levels which ignore lactate threshold (as something that's not easy to measure) and go from functional threshold power (FTP) which is defined as max 1 hr average power.

That has the great advantage of being easy to measure (either base from one hour normalised power ina RR, 1 hour TT av power or ~95% of max 20 min power) and a good proxy for a lot of related things like lacate levels

by Andy J Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:19 pm
Cheers for the replies guys, you have given me some food for thought.
Im interrested in getting tested properly to determine my lactate threshold and accurately calculate my training zones. Thats something Im considering having done at the end of this season so I can hopefully have a structured approach to next season, I take on board Arthurs comments about a power meter but unfortunately the budget wont stretch that far at the moment.
Is anyone else interrested in being tested in a lab?
Im sure St Johns college would provide this service at an affordable price.

by Rob Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:15 pm
Andy, there's a Clifton discount through John Gray at St Johns.
R

by Dr Dave Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:01 pm
Andy, if you do get tested at St John's some feedback (including price info!) would be much appreciated - thanks

by Andy J Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:38 pm
Hi folks,

Full Lactate and VO2 testing is £69 at St Johns, the test lasts an hour and you get a training report afterwards, our point of contact is on hoiday for the next two weeks but will be available after that to arrange these sessions.

Should anyone be interrested then I can forward contact details to you.

Regards Andy

by justsweat Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:24 am
You may get a bigger discount if we put a group of say 8 together

by Andy J Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:08 pm
That maybe the case but arranging something to be let down like we were with the training seminars etc isnt worth the hassle for me, if anyone else is interrested then I can forward on John Grays email address.

by PhilBixby Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:29 pm
Going back to the original subject - workouts specifically aimed at TT's - I found an interesting one on the ABCC website by Stuart Dangerfield's coach. It's at http://www.abcc.co.uk/Articles/wright1.html . He describes a set of intervals which start intensive and move to (more) extensive and are designed to get fast and slow twitch muscles working together. He emphasises that the sessions he describes should only be done upon a base of overall high fitness, so would probably be just for a 4-6 week period leading up to a planned peak in the season.

Interesting that he notes Dangermouse's power outputs; 950-1000W peak (hold on, I could do that!), 650-700W during 1min intervals (okay, couldn't do that), 500W for five minutes (definitely couldn't do that) and 460W for the duration of a 10 (b****y hell!). There's a specialist at work.
Last edited by PhilBixby on Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

by Dr Dave Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:54 pm
Andy J wrote:Hi folks,

Full Lactate and VO2 testing is £69 at St Johns, the test lasts an hour and you get a training report afterwards, our point of contact is on hoiday for the next two weeks but will be available after that to arrange these sessions.

Should anyone be interrested then I can forward contact details to you.

Regards Andy


Did you go/get this done Andy?

by Dr Dave Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:55 pm
PhilBixby wrote:Going back to the original subject - workouts specifically aimed at TT's - I found an interesting one on the ABCC website by Stuart Dangerfield's coach. It's at http://www.abcc.co.uk/Articles/wright1.html. He describes a set of intervals which start intensive and move to (more) extensive and are designed to get fast and slow twitch muscles working together. He emphasises that the sessions he describes should only be done upon a base of overall high fitness, so would probably be just for a 4-6 week period leading up to a planned peak in the season.

Interesting that he notes Dangermouse's power outputs; 950-1000W peak (hold on, I could do that!), 650-700W during 1min intervals (okay, couldn't do that), 500W for five minutes (definitely couldn't do that) and 460W for the duration of a 10 (b****y hell!). There's a specialist at work.


Hi phil

All I get from your link is a re-direct to a 'website under construction banner'

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