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by DavidShort Sun May 21, 2017 4:44 pm
Excellent points well made by James. LED lights are reasonably priced, add little weight for the weight weenies but significantly increase visibility and safety. As, for the 'red mist' riding there is really no excuse. It's a club event on open roads not the 'World's on closed ones. I've seen some riding myself which has made me wince in the past. We have enough problems with motorists, we don't want to give them or anyone else any ammunition to cause problems for the club. At the very least it might jeopardise our 'authority' to run events. At worst..., well you don't need me to spell it out.

Once again, many thanks to James for pointing this out. We are enjoying a great series and I'm grateful to everyone, officials and competitors for that. Lets keep it that way and continue to enjoy the SPOCO TT series without any mishaps.

Kind regards David
by G. Sun May 21, 2017 10:42 pm
James Milner wrote:Just a couple of points I wanted to bring up following Thursday evening's time trial.

As you know I was marshaling at the junction of Pottery Lane and the Strensall to Sheriff road.

The first one is regarding rear lights on bikes. It was a fairly gloomy evening on Thursday and it was apparent to me in the position I was that many of the drivers speeding along from Strensall towards Sheriff would have had great difficulty spotting some of the riders until the last minute. Indeed it was noticeable that riders who chose to use rear lights were much more visible from a greater distance. I know this has been suggested before but after watching on Thursday I really do feel it would be a good idea to make rear lights compulsory for this event.

With respect, I think it's an awful idea.

Cycling's a safe activity: you're less likely to die in 10 miles of cycling than in 10 miles of walking. In the UK, you're about as many people are killed through cycling as through falling out of a building or inhaling their stomach contents - but I didn't get out the climbing harness last time I used a ladder, did I? According to the research, most motorists who "don't see" cyclists can actually see them very well, so rear lights are probably ineffective anyway. Given that we've not had any collisions on any of our events (despite the ruts, potholes, gravel, blind corners ... ), can't we cut out the unevidenced solutions to nonexistent problems, continue treating people like adults and letting us make our own decisions about whether to run a rear light in the daytime?

Of course, if you really want some evidence-based safety improvements, very few cyclists get hit from behind but 75% of fatal collisions happen at junctions, so we should scrap these silly laney courses and ride on main roads with good sight lines and a single roundabout at one end. Somehow, I know this good idea won't fly ...
by Dr Dave Mon May 22, 2017 7:49 am
Instinctively I am wary of any 'you must' injunctions and it would be a real shame if people were discouraged or turned away if they didn't have a rear light (or it wasn't working/flat batteries etc). Also think it sends out a message that cycling is intrinsically a high risk or hazardous activity when - as Greg points out - it is statistically very safe and has overall health benefits that outweigh any risk element. However I do think that rear lights should be suggested/encouraged as part of the promotion of these events and that this could be highlighted (deliberate pun ;) ) in a way that makes it seem part of the ritual rather than as high risk mitigation. Any spin doctors out there??

Keep pedalling!
by dave c Mon May 22, 2017 9:03 am
Some open tt organisers have this in their start sheet

'It is recommended that a working rear light, either flashing or constant, is fitted to the machine in a position visible to following road users and is active whilst the machine is in use'.

Still up to the individual
by James Milner Mon May 22, 2017 10:21 am
With regard to Greg's comments: I don't usually use a rear light myself for these events, indeed I don't think I've ever used one on a TT. Last Thursday however, I saw things from a different point of view and, as a motorist, I'm fairly certain I would have a great deal of difficulty seeing a lot of the riders until the very last second. It was noticeable how much more visible the riders with lights were. I don't doubt Greg's statistics, you can 'prove' whatever you like with them. I just know what I saw. Also, had I been driving in those conditions, I would have had my lights on. Just saying.
by Matt H Mon May 22, 2017 11:29 am
I like to be seen when riding on the road and have a rear light designed for daylight use, (Bontrager claim its visible for 2km in daylight), it has a lower setting for use in the dark to avoid dazzling other road users.

Its called the Bontrager Flare R, if anyone is interested, although I'm sure other brands make them too.
by IanH Mon May 22, 2017 8:12 pm
I was just thinking the same as James as the riders went past me at my marshalling point the ones without a light on the back soon became hard to see as the daylight was starting to fade due to darker clouds going over us and those with a light on were extremely visible

I think it should be advisory rather than making it compulsory and the rider makes their own decision as they are responsible for their own safety once on the course.

Ian H.

Are we there yet
by Sharpy Tue May 23, 2017 9:53 am
Matt H wrote:Its called the Bontrager Flare R, if anyone is interested, although I'm sure other brands make them too.


This is what I use, I always use a rear light, having driven along a variety of roads when there are TTs on I do believe they make a difference, they catch the eye a lot more than a rider without, so I would disagree with Gregs comments that a driver would not see you with or without as I think it can make a difference.

That said I do believe that unless it becomes a legal requirement it should be down to the choice of the rider with a string suggestion from organisers as to best practice.

The other comments around the roads used are valid though, I feel safer of a more main road as drivers view is generally better anyway and the approach to roundabout and junctions is often better, but it is down to the rider to be safe. I went ride at the last turn (not on to the wrong side of the road) but that was due to the bad road surface more than anything, something that can catch anyone out.
by G. Tue May 23, 2017 12:06 pm
Sharpy wrote:The other comments around the roads used are valid though, I feel safer of a more main road as drivers view is generally better anyway and the approach to roundabout and junctions is often better, but it is down to the rider to be safe. I went ride at the last turn (not on to the wrong side of the road) but that was due to the bad road surface more than anything, something that can catch anyone out.


Aah, I'm glad someone agrees with me! I know I've said it before about the last corner on the Sutton course: we started using it because people thought it would be safer, but it's a turn into oncoming traffic somewhere that frequently has gravel on the road, 50 yards from the finish line - in my opinion it's much more dangerous than the old finish. I always take it like a wuss but it's interesting to hear that people are indeed going wide on it. Changes and restrictions we make in the name of safety can have unwanted consequences, so we need to do them based on actual evidence, not what makes some individuals nervous.

In the meantime, part of being a road cyclist is accepting that you're sharing the road with cars. If you want to run a rear light in the daytime, whether in or out of a race, that's completely up to you! If it makes you feel better, that's great, and if you don't want to use one, well you sign on at the start to say you're using the public roads and will abide by the rules, so that's fine too.
by dave c Wed May 24, 2017 7:12 am
Greg, James was referring to the corner back onto the Strensall/Sheriff Hutton road. The corner near the finish is just taken as any other corner irrespective of where it is on the course. The finish was changed for a few reasons including the difficulty for the timekeepers, speed of cars and riders having to turn round.

Cheers

Dave
by Dr Dave Wed May 24, 2017 5:11 pm
I think Greg is referring to Sharpy's posting wrt the final corner at the start/finish.
I must admit I have reservations about the new finish being on that corner although I appreciate why it was changed.

Keep pedalling!
by paulM Wed May 24, 2017 11:24 pm
Hi Greg
if you dont like the silly lane courses I dont think anyone is forcing you to ride! Flat time trials arent the future of cycling or even time trialling for that matter. personally I much prefer these roads and strangely have been involved in the running of these on and off since about 2002 and dont remember any incident. Its too easy to be passing judgement and having opinions like that on something when your only involvement is sticking a number on yer back!

Back to more important business though - I still have all the gear from the last event .
Where does this need to go as would like to get it offloaded by the weekend and I'm not able to get to the come and try event?

cheers

Paul
by craigdabrown Thu May 25, 2017 10:28 am
I think we would all acknowledge that finding a completely suitable finish for the Sutton course is not easy. As someone who hasn’t actually ridden a T.T. event, I can only comment on what I have witnessed as a marshal, overheard from competitors and concluded from the information gleaned during the discussions we had at the Time-Trial planning meeting at the end of last season.

As has been mentioned, the issue with finishing on the main road to Sheriff Hutton, although having the advantage of being long, straight and giving everyone involved – riders, event staff and motorists – a clear line of sight, is that it is a fast and sometimes busy stretch of road, the nearside road surface is very poor – meaning that riders have to adopt a route further away from the kerb than is ideal - and once they cross the finish line competitors have to turn on the main road and make their way back to the starting position to collect personal items, discuss times with other riders etc. The road being busy, and the speed of passing cars, can make things difficult and uncomfortable for Timekeepers and riders alike. I have witnessed cars overtaking cars overtaking cyclists on that stretch of road, sometimes even in the face of oncoming traffic.

As has also been mentioned, the current finishing position has some drawbacks too - the nature of the final turn itself, gravel on the road surface and the lack of visibility due to uncut, kerbside vegetation becoming overgrown at this time of year.

Personally, I feel it was rather unproductive and inappropriate of Greg to refer to the “silly laney courses” associated with this Series as that reflects rather badly on the enormous amount of time, effort and planning which went into making the start of this Thursday evening Time-Trial Series the best-attended and most popular we have had for a number of seasons. However, I must also add that Greg was one of the few members who did make an effort to attend the aforementioned planning meeting, was responsible for advocating the addition of the Wheldrake circuit events for this season and regularly offers an opinion based on his T.T. experience.

Sometimes, we just have to be careful before sending e-mails or posting items on Discussion Boards etc. as these can be taken out of context, appear personal and insulting when that was not the intention and are often seen by a wider audience than was, perhaps, anticipated at composition. Goodness knows, I have probably fallen foul of this more than most.

This Series is looking really good this season, so let’s keep everything constructive, build on what we already have and continue to discuss, contribute to and enhance it and all Club activities. When you see an invitation to participate in an event, attend a meeting or assist with volunteering, come along, express your opinion in a positive manner or help out by filling one of the required roles as Club events simply can’t continue otherwise.

We’ve already had to cancel the Pock Pedal this year and event organisers - whether it's with regard to the Road Race Day, evening T.T. Series, weekend rides, the Junior Section or Club meetings - really don’t get an added buzz out of continually having to appeal for volunteers and participants right up to the last moment.
by Sharpy Thu May 25, 2017 10:57 am
Agree with all the comments, having organised and ridden TTs i know it can be difficult, I was actually referencing the 2nd last corner... I forgot about the last one.

Ultimately it was my error, I was not fussed either way on the finish being where it is and I agree that the surface up to Sheriff is appalling and could be quite dangerous although I do prefer that finish as its faster :wink:

This is a great series this year and I look forward to seeing a few more faces throughout the year.

Discussion and feedback is good and required to ensure progress the TT scene is a growing one in the UK and to say its not future of cycling may be a bit misguided, it is cycling in what many consider to be its purest form, it is very much here to stay.

So far the organisers have done a great job!!

Thanks
Rich
by G. Thu May 25, 2017 1:23 pm
Paul, it's important to consider what you say: the events have been running for fifteen years without incident - that's several thousand individual rides - so why are we suddenly getting all scared that they're dangerous, first with the Sutton course and now with the daytime rear lights? Surely the record shows that the SPOCOS are very safe? What's changed?

It's not just Rich's comment I was thinking of when I mentioned the final corner: last Thursday I overheard some newcomers being warned about it too. It's clearly not just me who doesn't like it!

I've sat on the old finishing stretch enough times as timekeeper or helper it doesn't strike me as busy. If people U-turning was really a problem, the correct way to deal with it would be a "No U-turns within sight of the timekeeper" rule - as is standard practice in TTs nationwaide. More importantly though, this is the stretch of road that we all ride out along to get to the Brandsby and all the Bulmer-based courses. Should we ban all of those - and presumably the Malton training route too - because it's irresponsible to make people ride along the Sutton road?

First with the course change and now with the rear lights, it seems we don't trust people to accept the risks associated with everyday tasks like crossing the road or cycling on it during the daytime. I doubt I'm alone if I find that a wee bit offensive (not nearly as offensive as some of the stuff I've had for daring to ride on dual carriageways, but that's another story!) Can we stop advocating hastily thought-through fixes to ever-decreasing problems, and just let people ride like adults and accept responsibility for their own wellbeing, like they say they will when they sign on the start sheet and just like I do every time I ride my bike to work every day?

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