Topic Title

I think it's safer crossing at Kirkham (downhill) than at the bottom personally.

Turn-wise, shorter turns mean people get more out of it. It also means we'll need to keep the groups more even in terms of ability, but that seems a good thing. Sat in the bunch on the flat last week it needed 80 watts to keep up. That's not going to get anyone fit. Better to have a more evenly matched group and a couple of groups than one big group with the fitter riders sitting on the front all the time IMO.

Agree with Paul and Nick about Kirkham and A64. Route length should be same as Malton full loop (3hrs). No point getting out of bed otherwise. 50 miles is optimum length. Can also get around Millington and back through from leavening in that distance, as well as good crayke/ ampleforth loop and also loop out to boroughbridge/ west of york. (They are separate routes, not one suggestion!!)

PS I hope Arthur is joking about the crossing at Kirkham?

Kirkham: no I really do thing it's safer. Nice sight lines if you cross straight away and a nice downhill run for the second crossing. I've had bad experiences trying to cross at the bottom.

Run length - three hours is going to be right for a second cat, but it's going to be too long for a ride that's meant to be brisk for people just getting used to training rides IMO.

Kirkham crossing's OK if there's not many of you and you're all experienced, cross in the same way and are decisive. I'd therefore suggest humbly that it's not for Sat mornings.... The only good way across the A64 is via a bridge or teleportation.

3 hours is a bit much as a training ride if you then plan to train well on Sunday as well.

Paul, earlier in this thread, talks a lot of sense.

We are in danger of losing the established riders. 3 hours is fine. whats the point in riding in a grop for anything less. sundays are only steady? If people are having problems with doing two reasonable distance rides back to back they should consider looking at their diets and rest patterns. Come on...

I wasn't talking about the Sunday clubrun (unlike me I know!). If I was training for next season then, after Xmas, I'd be doing 2 to 2.5 hours pretty hard on Sat morning (with the club). Then 60 or so miles in just over 3 hours on Sunday (in a group if possible). Back to back hard days are not the ideal of course, but life gets in the way........

Coupling the above with 2 turbos in the week used to keep me busy through Jan and Feb.

Or maybe that's where I was going wrong!

Kirkham - actually I'm sure we'll all in agreement that not crossing the A64 at all is preferable. These days, unless I'm on my own or it's very quiet I'll tend to cross at Malton or avoid crossing at all.

We are in danger of losing the established riders. 3 hours is fine. whats the point in riding in a grop for anything less..

Sounds like there's a clear demand for two groups then. That seems cool to me. If club riders want 3 hour + rides (clearly they do) and club riders want shorter rides so they can build up (which they do), we should look at how we provide both.

There's enough of us now that there's no need to stick to one group on a Saturday.

I think there's a likelihood here of ending up with not one, not two, but three groups, or indeed a swarm of pairs of riders heading off in every available direction!

There are plenty of riders who will be new or relatively new to racing for whom 3hrs+ will be too long if it's fast. Plus it'll end up going a bit of a different way anyway, just to keep it interesting, and we'll end up back where we were heading with 3½hrs+ on the road.

Then there are a bunch of us who are used to racing, but from the sound of it are some way off Charlie's level. We could cherfully hammer round for 3hrs+ but it'd mean Sunday - clubrun or shorter, faster, non-stop alternative - would be done with tired legs. That doesn't make sense overall.

Lastly there's a bunch for whom distance is no object as they don't go out on group rides on Sundays. They can do what they like, but I don't think it's reasonable to drag the training ride along for company. This seemed to be the common complaint about what the Saturday rides were turning into.

I tend to take the view that if PaulM reckons a weekly blast round Malton/Terrington is a good use of Saturday morning, then that's good enough for me as he's not exactly a slacker. It's nearly 2½hrs. I'm not worried about getting bored as every other ride I do will be different each week. It's a safe route, and works fine even with a big group. Why does life have to be so complex?

I agree with Phil here. My concern about splitting the groups on distance would be that the 3+ hours group would be the fast group and the 2.5 hours group would be the slower group. Someone could only progress to the faster group if they were willing to ride for the longer duration on Saturday.

I'm with Phil and Iain too. 2 1/2 hours getting faster as the spring comes around. This may mean a slightly longer route later to keep the riding time up but that's something to look at later.

If people want to go further/faster can't they just add a loop on after the main group gets back to York and hammer it having had a nice "warm up"?

I don't care about the route varying - I'm not looking at the scenery anyway!

At least there are enough people interested to have a good debate eh? That's progress for you!

Paul (sensible) Musgrave here again. I've said my piece already just to add that I was also basing my argument on the fact that I was rather hoping to manage a ride Sunday as well - that will be with the club if there are any other takers for a non-stopper from the square 0900 to 1200/1300? I'm quite happy to take the responsibility for this as I hope to make the majority and know my way around a bit.
So thats a brisk 2.5 hr ride Sat and a longer, slightly steadier ride Sun.
Call me old fashioned but I would have thought anyone basing their Saturday ride on the fact that they won't be riding Sunday needs to be thinking of sticking a few miles on at the end of better still a few miles beforehand and meet us enroute which is possible if we stick to the same route?
So Charlie - tell that to the established rider - whoever he is??
And Charlie - the word for today is COMPROMISE - its what you do when you join a club.

I agree with everything you say about the riding Paul, but please show Charlie a bit of respect in all this - debate is a good thing and we should value his input.

Compromise! My rides have been compromised week in week out, as Tony and i have been nursing the group around the lanes - easing the pace on hills, ensuring everyone is toghether or that the pace is slowed if someone stops, having a cafe/shop stop if required, getting the newer riders to ease back and stop half wheeling each other on the front! In actual fact, the pace often lifts when Tony and i are away from the front, simply because people percieve it to be the 'fast' run and do not know how to pace themselves.
At this time of year you have to capitalise on the weather. If Saturday is good, then make the most of it - who knows what sunday is going to be like.
Can we please stop all this whining now. So long as everyones agenda is made clear on in the square, we are all ok...